Blamco Equalizer Pack vs Red Rock Equivalents

[luckygreen]

Just to make it clear: Both seem like excellent choices. I admire both developers for their dsp programming skills.

But if you have to choose one over the other, what would it be?
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RRS_PEQS.jpg (184.92 KiB) Viewed 680 times

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Blamco_PEQS.jpg (192.73 KiB) Viewed 680 times

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Right now the Red Rock devices are on sale for a total of EUR 27,00 (~ USD 30,00) here in Germany incl. taxes.

While I have not seen the Blamsoft devices on sale yet. The bundle constantly is EUR 39,00 (USD 42,50) here in Germany incl. taxes.

The Blamsoft equivalents feel a tad more rounded because they feature a preset manager and each device has a gain and drive setting. Then again, they have no CV inputs which might not be that important for that type of devices anyway.

Any thoughts?

[crimsonwarlock]

I would suggest to also look at Kuassa's AT-bundle, also currently on sale. Those give you a few more EQ-options. They don't have the low+high cut filter, but the Red Rock one is free anyway.

I've never seen the Blamsoft EQ bundle on sale for at least the last few years.

[madmacman]

I'm in the same boat (not yet decided), and I have tested the candidates (also e.g. Kuassa EVE MP-5) with Bertom EQ Curve Analyser (https://bertomaudio.com/eq-curve-analyzer.html). The Blamco Program EQ was so far the only one that gave me nasty artefacts on the diagram:

Screenshot 2024-05-19 at 14.35.09.png (138.48 KiB) Viewed 657 times

Cannot tell what's going on there. Sometimes the EQ calms down after some parameter adjustments and the diagram is as expected. Only to drive nuts again a few seconds later.

I cannot say that the Blamco is therefore "worse", just wanted to share my observations.

Maybe an expert such as selig can chime in here and clarify a bit.

EDIT: Technical specs: Running RRP (12.7.4) in Studio One 6.6.1 Mac with 44.1/24.

[selig]

I'm in the same boat (not yet decided), and I have tested the candidates (also e.g. Kuassa EVE MP-5) with Bertom EQ Curve Analyser (https://bertomaudio.com/eq-curve-analyzer.html). The Blamco Program EQ was so far the only one that gave me nasty artefacts on the diagram:

Screenshot 2024-05-19 at 14.35.09.png

Cannot tell what's going on there. Sometimes the EQ calms down after some parameter adjustments and the diagram is as expected. Only to drive nuts again a few seconds later.

I cannot say that the Blamco is therefore "worse", just wanted to share my observations.

Maybe an expert such as selig can chime in here and clarify a bit.

EDIT: Technical specs: Running RRP (12.7.4) in Studio One 6.6.1 Mac with 44.1/24.

That is one beautiful comb filter. For it to be that well defined it would have to be a short delay at equal volume as the dry signal. Not sure how you could accidentally get that, it’s not normal and would be obviously audible. Something else is going on here…

[joeyluck]

I have MP5 and I like it. The others might be good, but MP5 works great for me.

[luckygreen]

I would suggest to also look at Kuassa's AT-bundle, also currently on sale. Those give you a few more EQ-options. They don't have the low+high cut filter, but the Red Rock one is free anyway.

I've never seen the Blamsoft EQ bundle on sale for at least the last few years.

Perfect! More choices.
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Kuassa_PEQS.jpg (141.46 KiB) Viewed 610 times

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For EUR 54,00 (~ USD 59,00) incl taxes it is the most expensive bundle. Though it has Neve EQ emulations included. So there's that.

[madmacman]

For EUR 54,00 (~ USD 59,00) incl taxes it is the most expensive bundle. Though it has Neve EQ emulations included. So there's that.

Or you ignore the Bundle with the Neve EQ's and stick with MP-5 for €43,00 After all, it is 2 EQ's in one!

[Billy+]

The other devs were late to the party so I just got all the Kuassa's, and haven't looked back.

[rorystorm]

IIRC parameters in the blamsoft devices cannot be automated or set as a destination in a combinator whereas the others' parameters can. Also like everything blamsoft make, the devices in their eq bundle are quite cpu intensive.

[luckygreen]

I'm in the same boat (not yet decided), and I have tested the candidates (also e.g. Kuassa EVE MP-5) with Bertom EQ Curve Analyser (https://bertomaudio.com/eq-curve-analyzer.html). The Blamco Program EQ was so far the only one that gave me nasty artefacts on the diagram:

Screenshot 2024-05-19 at 14.35.09.png

Cannot tell what's going on there. Sometimes the EQ calms down after some parameter adjustments and the diagram is as expected. Only to drive nuts again a few seconds later.

I cannot say that the Blamco is therefore "worse", just wanted to share my observations.

Maybe an expert such as selig can chime in here and clarify a bit.

EDIT: Technical specs: Running RRP (12.7.4) in Studio One 6.6.1 Mac with 44.1/24.

Have you found the cause for that comb filter like response? Meanwhile what Pultec emu are you leaning towards?

[luckygreen]

IIRC parameters in the blamsoft devices cannot be automated or set as a destination in a combinator whereas the others' parameters can. Also like everything blamsoft make, the devices in their eq bundle are quite cpu intensive.

Yeah, at the moment I tend toward the Kuassa one too. Seems to be more or less the standard around here. I have to make one or two more comparisons though.

[madmacman]

Have you found the cause for that comb filter like response? Meanwhile what Pultec emu are you leaning towards?

No unfortunately not. I tried it with other settings (e.g. 48KHz) but with same results. Since I cannot confirm the results in any other way (and I cannot rule out the possibility that the fault lies with Bertom EQ Analyzer) I still have some residual doubt. There are some people in this forum who like Blamco a lot, e.g. here viewtopic.php?p=477620#p477620 (and eXode has an excellent reputation).

Still undecided, but leaning towards EVE MP-5. Even if it is not like "Pultec" in its purest sense.

[selig]

Have you found the cause for that comb filter like response? Meanwhile what Pultec emu are you leaning towards?

No unfortunately not. I tried it with other settings (e.g. 48KHz) but with same results. Since I cannot confirm the results in any other way (and I cannot rule out the possibility that the fault lies with Bertom EQ Analyzer) I still have some residual doubt. There are some people in this forum who like Blamco a lot, e.g. here viewtopic.php?p=477620#p477620 (and eXode has an excellent reputation).

Still undecided, but leaning towards EVE MP-5. Even if it is not like "Pultec" in its purest sense.

I don’t have the BlamCo to test, but if the results you show were happening for everyone, the product would be totally unusable! There must be some other explanation for what you’re seeing…

[madmacman]

I don’t have the BlamCo to test, but if the results you show were happening for everyone, the product would be totally unusable! There must be some other explanation for what you’re seeing…

Exactly, that‘s why I‘m careful with my conclusions and don‘t blame (no pun intended) BlamCo.

EDIT: I did a (sort of) 2nd test with pink noise tone generator & spectrum meter in Studio One and BlamCo as Eq. I didn't realise any issues. When cranking up the knobs the spectrum reacted as expected. And when using a "real world" example (kick drum for the Pultec trick), it was totally fine.

My suspicion: the Bertom analyzer sends very short signal pulses for its measurement that the BlamCo cannot cope with - but this is also not a real application.

[sdst]

I tried both, choose Red Rock because it is better with the cpu, and it was on sale

[supersmarter]

Red Rock. As of late I am revisiting his line. Top quality.

[Theo.M]

Red Rock. As of late I am revisiting his line. Top quality.

I really like his multiband compressor but I wish he had a linear phase option for the crossovers, cause even with zero dynamics going on, they drastically alter the sound just by being moved which means it's not that useful on a full mix where I would normally want to use multiband, but I have been using the demo a lot on single sounds. I just wish the crossovers were better, but overall, Red rock seems to make some really nice stuff for sure.

[luckygreen]

I'm no expert but I took my sketchy knowledge and did some tests with DDMF Plugindoctor looking for two signs of quality respectively the lack thereof:

• Harmonics that are mirrord down at nyquist > aliasing
• Cramping at nyquist

The candidates:

• Blamco > looks like camping to me and looks like aliasing to me though it causes the most CPU-load by far. So I would guess I does quite some upsampling. Weird.
• Kuassa > technically cramps, but not really, look at pictures below. Harmonics look ok to me.
• Red Rock Sound > no cramping, interesting "neutral" frequency response in the upper half. Interesting EQ, but there's an issue, look below.
• Selig ColoringEQ > for comparison. I'd say it cramps but I was told that's not necessarily a bad thing. But you should know about.

So I'd say Red Rock Sound look interesting, but the RE is v1.0.0 and
- The RE version has no adjustable saturation, the VST version has
- The RE version has no HQ (upsampling?) mode, the VST version has
- The RE version has no preset management, the VST version has

I messaged the developer of the Red Rock EQ if we can expect an updated RE version with features like the VST version or if they rather leaving development for Reason. Hope I will get a reply soon.

Pictures of my findings. Hope the resolution is sufficient.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

And please, if you are a developer of one of those fine pieces of software, don't hit me if I did something wrong. I'm just trying to figure out what would be the best choice. Thank you.

BTW, Selig Colouring EQ has Plutec Templates. Interesting. I need to take a closer look at this baby.

*edit: upsampling, not upscaling

[luckygreen]

Red Rock Sound emailed me back, telling me

1. They have a policy in place that grants free access to the VST plugin if you have the equivalent RE version. You can read it here at the bottom of the page: https://redrocksound.pro/en/re/
   Attention! It only works one way: RE > VST. It is NOT possible to get the RE for free if you bought the VST first. To me it is a nice safety net: If I find myself struggeling with the fixed drive amount or the lack of HQ mode on the RE I can still use the VST without additional cost. Obviously using the VST version is not as comfortable as using the RE as a Reason user, but at least it is possible.
2. They are not planing to abandon Reason. in fact they intend to release more RE this year.
3. They plan to update their RE if possible.

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RRS_RE_policy.png (24.11 KiB) Viewed 254 times

[selig]

BTW, Selig Colouring EQ has Plutec Templates. Interesting. I need to take a closer look at this baby.

The only place you can easily see cramping is on parametric shapes. Cramping causes a slight asymmetric shape to the otherwise symmetrical bell shapes. There are not "artifacts" or other sonic identifiers. But folks like to SEE symmetrical curves, so some EQs hide their cramping!
Most EQs, certainly all from RS as well as every other EQ I could find (when doing a quick and totally non-scientific test). Remember it only affects the top part of the curve, typically only once you get close to 10kHz and above, which has little effect on the shape and even less effect on the sound in my experience. Putting it another way, every digital EQ early on used cramping and even when coming from 20 years of analog EQ experience I never noticed the difference.

It's actually a fairly small difference, as shown here with the MClass EQ at FULL boost (worst case). And even then you only have a few dB difference way up around 20kHz, and virtually no difference for the rest of the curve:

Screen Shot 2024-05-21 at 10.15.17 AM.png (79.57 KiB) Viewed 216 times

[luckygreen]

BTW, Selig Colouring EQ has Plutec Templates. Interesting. I need to take a closer look at this baby.

The only place you can easily see cramping is on parametric shapes. Cramping causes a slight asymmetric shape to the otherwise symmetrical bell shapes. There are not "artifacts" or other sonic identifiers. But folks like to SEE symmetrical curves, so some EQs hide their cramping!
Most EQs, certainly all from RS as well as every other EQ I could find (when doing a quick and totally non-scientific test). Remember it only affects the top part of the curve, typically only once you get close to 10kHz and above, which has little effect on the shape and even less effect on the sound in my experience. Putting it another way, every digital EQ early on used cramping and even when coming from 20 years of analog EQ experience I never noticed the difference.

It's actually a fairly small difference, as shown here with the MClass EQ at FULL boost (worst case). And even then you only have a few dB difference way up around 20kHz, and virtually no difference for the rest of the curve:
Screen Shot 2024-05-21 at 10.15.17 AM.png

Thank you for your explanation.

I took two indicators -- cramping and aliasing -- into consideration as a general clue of how much a developer cares about quality. No cramping and upsampling / an effective anti-aliasing filter (when nonlinearities are involved) do not mean that the EQ overall is good or that it does faithfully represent the analog device it tries to emulate. But it gives someone like me with limited knowledge in regard of digital signal processing something to measure the quality of the software in question. Of course there are many more aspects that are important. Like the shape of the curves, maybe a linear phase mode as a bonus feature, an option to turn off oversampling in case you want minimal latency and many more.

And to be frank: I own a license for Selig ColoringEQ since BF 2023 and I like it very much. But it cramps. Is that necessarily a bad thing? In most cases probably not.

[selig]

Thank you for your explanation.

I took two indicators -- cramping and aliasing -- into consideration as a general clue of how much a developer cares about quality. No cramping and upsampling / an effective anti-aliasing filter (when nonlinearities are involved) do not mean that the EQ overall is good or that it does faithfully represent the analog device it tries to emulate. But it gives someone like me with limited knowledge in regard of digital signal processing something to measure the quality of the software in question. Of course there are many more aspects that are important. Like the shape of the curves, maybe a linear phase mode as a bonus feature, an option to turn off oversampling in case you want minimal latency and many more.

And to be frank: I own a license for Selig ColoringEQ since BF 2023 and I like it very much. But it cramps. Is that necessarily a bad thing? In most cases probably not.

That's a perfect example. Check this out: why use a parametric for such a high adjustment? Here is a comparison of a similar parametric curve (as close as I could match) with a shelf EQ doing EXACTLY the same thing — BUT, without cramping. In fact, I purposely offset the shelf curve so you could see the original parametric curve - it COULD have been an even closer match FWIW:

Bottom line, it's SO easy to avoid the issue as for me to think of it as a total non-issue these days. And you save a good bit of CPU hit doing it this way, so there are benefits IMO.

Screen Shot 2024-05-21 at 11.19.32 AM.png (49.8 KiB) Viewed 199 times

Screen Shot 2024-05-21 at 11.17.52 AM.png (458.07 KiB) Viewed 199 times

[luckygreen]

I took the plunge and went with the Red Rock Pultec emu and their Neve 1073 emu. As promised I got the VST equivalents from Red Rock for free. The VST equivalents have much more options. Tones of imput routing, sophisticated macro controls, preset management, HQ mode (an antialiasing filter by the looks of it), upsampling, adjustable drive and what not. I hope at least some of the added features will make it back to the RE versions in a not too distant future.

Another sign that hints at the quality of the plugins by Red Rock Sound: The VST3 versions remember their window sizes. Brilliant! How many VST plugins do you know that reset their window size when loading into a new project? If you haven't wrapped them into an Ableton Live rack or a Reason combinator container I dare say: most of them. In my experience only few developers have managed to make their GUI continuously resizeable and make it so that the plugin remembers it's last window size. I have no clue why that seems the be an art but Red Rock nailed that too!

I'm quite impressed by the quality of the Red Rock plugins. I'm already keeping an eye out for further Red Rock Sound offerings. To be honest that is not the result I was expecting. Or as we say in Germany: "Am besten testen" (~ "it's best to test")
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