Unpopular opinion: "Players" are the worst feature of Reason

[Luxuria]

PHeads are ahead of the game when it comes to devices for the non-musician.

With this snobbish attitude why on earth are you complaining about the lack of MIDI VST support?

Lol
So they don't keep implementing their "If you can't beat them, restrict them" ways. I have no gripe with making " music making " easier.

I don't even use players. I would love to use Cthulhu though. Arpeggiators are my cup of tea.

[stratatonic]

A big reason I'm starting to resent the company is because this situation resembles a similar one from their past.

Community wants VST support.
PHeads says no, releases RE's. Milks it for as long as they can and eventually releases VST support.

Community wants MIDI based VSTs.
PHeads doesn't say anything this time around. Releases players as their own version of MIDI VSTs. Milks their market competition free and eventually in the future will release an update for MIDI based VSTs.

Every DAW now has its own Marketplace and setting it up competition free like Propellerhead has done sounds like good business decision.

[Luxuria]

A big reason I'm starting to resent the company is because this situation resembles a similar one from their past.

Community wants VST support.
PHeads says no, releases RE's. Milks it for as long as they can and eventually releases VST support.

Community wants MIDI based VSTs.
PHeads doesn't say anything this time around. Releases players as their own version of MIDI VSTs. Milks their market competition free and eventually in the future will release an update for MIDI based VSTs.

Every DAW now has its own Marketplace and setting it up competition free like Propellerhead has done sounds like good business decision.

Yes mostly in the form of sample libraries.

They didn't all announce from the start that they will only support their own created device format and later open it up to the others.

The ones that did, Logic(AU), are because well..come on it's Apple it's expected they would pull a sleezy move and Pro Tools (AAX) which there are VST wrappers for but I do not support their business decisions more then I do PHeads.

I have to call myself out on my BS and say I'm stupid after I realized this. Steinberg (Cubase) created and released VST extensions in 96. But at the same time they were the first to do it so before them there was nothing. They did a pretty good job of allowing it to be open and not DAW restrictive.

[antic604]

It really is a unique device that blends together different features while maintaining a clear and easy to understand workflow.

Yeah, I don't think I ever saw a VST (or DAW for that matter) that lets me select a note and "expand" it into a chord, arp or strum or to select a range and generate notes (and their parameters) in that area. As much as I'd love to see this in main sequencer, I'm super happy it's there at all

[miscend]

1: They break the Rack paradigm. You cannot see what a player is controlling, or use the clever routing that Reason is famous for.

Perhaps they should remove the Player plugins from the rack altogether and add them in a plugin slot in the sequencer window.

[stratatonic]

Logic(AU), are because well..come on it's Apple it's expected they would pull a sleezy move and Pro Tools (AAX) which there are VST wrappers for but I do not support their business decisions more then I do PHeads.

Propellerhead has always had proprietary format: Refill Nothing new here...

[challism]

they’re entirely optional!

^ This is the best reply I've read in this thread.

I love Players. I'm not sure why the OP is complaining about them, really. Don't like them? Don't use/buy them. End of story.

[joeyluck]

There's things I wish were different with players, such as:

• Being able to minimize individual players. This is huge...literally, it can get take up so much of the screen that I can't see the instrument I'm controlling and the player at the top of a chain at the same time)
• MIDI cabling
• Uniformity in 'On' buttons and their location

But saying the Players are the "worst feature of Reason" I couldn't disagree with more.

[Boombastix]

• Being able to minimize individual players.

Yeah, it's becoming a problem as the stacks grows. Since it was not implemented in the SDK, developers have not designed for it, but if they just let it fold to a generic minimized version with the player name and patch name, I think that is OK. They can update the SDK eventually, but that would only affect new players, so need a fix for old players too. Ugly is better than nothing...

[joeyluck]

• Being able to minimize individual players.

Yeah, it's becoming a problem as the stacks grows. Since it was not implemented in the SDK, developers have not designed for it, but if they just let it fold to a generic minimized version with the player name and patch name, I think that is OK. They can update the SDK eventually, but that would only affect new players, so need a fix for old players too. Ugly is better than nothing...

Agreed. Something generic like the VST device would be fine. Sure some players have browsers and some don't...so those browsers might only be accessible in unfolded view (if having generic folded views). Although honestly now is the time to address it (well, initially would've been better), but while there are only but a handful of developers who have made players...

Here's the small list of devs who have made and released Players (aside from Propellerhead):

- Enlightenspeed
- Le Note Live
- Lectric Panda
- LoveOne
- ReTouch Control
- Robotic Bean
- Selig
- Static Cling
- Tonic Mint
- Zvork

It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to orchestrate the change moving forward, if they address it sooner than later. So they should just do it before it gets harder to pull off.

Something else I'd like to see with players, is being able to save and load Player chains. As it is now, you can't save Players in a Combinator separate from an instrument and you can't easily load a chain of Players on top of an instrument. You can save a chain with an instrument connected inside a Combinator and then replace that instrument, or load the Combinator and then pull the Players out... But I think it would be more inviting and intuitive to simply be able to save Player chains via the bar at the top. It encourages people to get creative and create and save Player chains. There's more Players being added to the shop, and I think anything that can be done to help with their workflow would also help add more appeal.

[theshoemaker]

I think the only problem with players is there are not enough of them. We currently have 8-9 in the shop that could be considered sequencers. We have a few hundred more to go before we are on par with the number of available synths.

Totally agree!

[theshoemaker]

Btw. I'm just doing a trial on the sequence player. Enjoying your work so far. Would like to see some pattern stuff in PSQ as well. Would be totally awesome

[Boombastix]

Something else I'd like to see with players, is being able to save and load Player chains.

Man, great idea.

[Enlightenspeed]

just have not played with players enough to decide if I like them or not... it is on my to do list lol

also... I tried to beta test 3 players... when I asked for a manual... the response was should be self explanitory... this to me was a rude remark as I am new to players... so... I bailed on the beta test looking for bugs in devices with no manuals... because WE ALL KNOW HOW THEY WORK... sad... left a bad taste in my mouth... I refuse to help arrogant people ... been on many beta tests... all were kind and helpful... but this response out of line.... I see they are in the shop now... won't be buying them either and refuse to mention the companies name... u want help... don't act like an ass.

I can only assume this is referring to me.

For the record, the below quote is the exact exchange.

thanx for the add. 2 appeared... mac... note after and note filter any documentation?

Mac works

No docs yet, I'm shamefully behind on that, but I was kinda thinking that these two at least should be pretty self explanatory.

I'll try and post a vid up tomorrow of me going through the feature set

Thanks
Brian

I apologise if this somehow came off as rude, and I posted a basic tutorial video soon after.

Furthermore, I have myself worked as an alpha and beta tester for well over a decade now with many of the biggest companies in the industry. It’s a fact of life that manuals are almost never available at testing time; features can change or be removed throughout the process and thus it is sensible to leave the manual writing until the final feature set is somewhat guaranteed.

So when testing a new product the standard method is to give a brief explanation of what it should do and let the testers figure the rest out themselves. This also helps the company gauge how simple it is, or not, for novices to quickly understand how it works.

Again I can only apologise if this seems harsh, but that really is the reality of it.

Cheers,
Brian

[Steedus]

I get the feeling Props stopped caring too much about the rack paradigm years ago. They consistently put out devices which barely have any design on the back so it's not surprising to me.

As for the players, I'm not a fan of how they are because I feel like it's yet another way to charge extra for creative features that might otherwise have been included (or integrated) in major version updates.

[reggie1979]

they’re entirely optional!

^ This is the best reply I've read in this thread.

I love Players. I'm not sure why the OP is complaining about them, really. Don't like them? Don't use/buy them. End of story.

You'll forgive me, but that is kinda cookie-cutter. Sure, if you don't like them, don't use them, but sounds kinda one sided "I'm a mod so"..... I know I shouldn't mess with a moderator, but there are stories for both sides.

Personally, I like some, and I don't like others. I've tried two lately that are newer and they don't gel with me. "So don't buy 'em" well, true but again kinda cookie-cutter.

Reason is my Number one. I'm just saying that it's ok to have a different POV and that sounds fanboi'ish.

[challism]

^ This is the best reply I've read in this thread.

I love Players. I'm not sure why the OP is complaining about them, really. Don't like them? Don't use/buy them. End of story.

You'll forgive me, but that is kinda cookie-cutter. Sure, if you don't like them, don't use them, but sounds kinda one sided "I'm a mod so"..... I know I shouldn't mess with a moderator, but there are stories for both sides.

Personally, I like some, and I don't like others. I've tried two lately that are newer and they don't gel with me. "So don't buy 'em" well, true but again kinda cookie-cutter.

Reason is my Number one. I'm just saying that it's ok to have a different POV and that sounds fanboi'ish.

I'm not sure how that is cookie-cutter. There are plenty of devices in the shop I don't like. Plenty of products in the world I don't like. So I don't buy them. I'll be the first to admit that I am a Reason fanboy, for sure. But I don't see how that really matters in this instance. If you don't like something, you shouldn't buy it. Seems like a pretty straight-forward solution to me. Maybe some people love a player you hated, it isn't your thing? Great! Don't buy it. But why limit what somebody else might like. The free market is a beautiful thing, you vote with your money. If Devs don't sell many units, they will create different things and go in different directions. It's the way business and markets work. You vote with your dollars. I'm also a fanboy of capitalism. You can also post your displeasure with devices on forums such as RT and hope the Dev see your post.

I appreciate your opinion and I don't consider disagreeing with a moderator "messing" with a mod. I don't think the tone of my post was "I'm a mod so...." as you stated. Forgive me if it was, but that was not my intention. All the users here are entitle to disagree with us and whatnot. We just expect a certain level of civility and respect, as is expected to treat all forum users, and you were a complete gentleman about calling me a fanboy. ha ha ha

• Being able to minimize individual players.

This is huge. I wish they were foldable, too. It's really annoying. I wonder why Props decided not to include the folding feature? That was a really strange decision. Kind of anti Reason, if you ask me. The same why that they didn't originally have any CV on the back.

One more thing that I think Players should have, is the ability to move them around the rack without being glued to the instrument they were placed on. It's a big problem if you want to move them. I dont see why they have to be glued to an instrument at all, really. Why can't you just drop a Player in the rack by itself (and it won't play anything until you put it on top of an instrument)?

[reggie1979]

Cool! I just thought that it was one-sided. If not, then my humble apologies...........who am I to judge

[reggie1979]

I hope everyone understands, I'm a fanboi. I love Reason and quite frankly if I didn't, I wouldn't be here.

[challism]

Cool! I just thought that it was one-sided. If not, then my humble apologies...........who am I to judge

I hope everyone understands, I'm a fanboi. I love Reason and quite frankly if I didn't, I wouldn't be here.

I'm 100% open to hearing everybody's opinion on the matter. And my opinion was if you don't like it, don't buy it. End of story (as in "problem solved", not "I'm a mod so....." I wasn't trying to sound authoritarian in the slightest). I'm glad you are a fanboy, too. I'm always surprised about the users who spend their time in forums such as this and dont even like the product. Just in there to troll.

[reggie1979]

Troll is a strong word. Not sure where you are going with that.

[challism]

Troll is a strong word. Not sure where you are going with that.

I'm not calling you a troll. I'm referring to haters who spend time on forums talking trash. Otherwise known as trolls. I don't think you are trolling. If you read my post again, it might make more sense. Sorry if it wasn't clear what I meant.

[Marc64]

I see the players as a extension of a instrument.
Like for example the dual arp, If a synth don't have an arp built in, well add it and there you go.
Same with cords and the rest, they just enhances the synths with features that are missing
That's my thought anyway

[moneykube]

also... I tried to beta test 3 players... when I asked for a manual... the response was should be self explanitory... this to me was a rude remark as I am new to players... so... I bailed on the beta test looking for bugs in devices with no manuals... because WE ALL KNOW HOW THEY WORK... sad... left a bad taste in my mouth... I refuse to help arrogant people ... been on many beta tests... all were kind and helpful... but this response out of line.... I see they are in the shop now... won't be buying them either and refuse to mention the companies name... u want help... don't act like an ass.

I can only assume this is referring to me.

For the record, the below quote is the exact exchange.

Mac works

No docs yet, I'm shamefully behind on that, but I was kinda thinking that these two at least should be pretty self explanatory.

I'll try and post a vid up tomorrow of me going through the feature set

Thanks
Brian

I apologise if this somehow came off as rude, and I posted a basic tutorial video soon after.

Furthermore, I have myself worked as an alpha and beta tester for well over a decade now with many of the biggest companies in the industry. It’s a fact of life that manuals are almost never available at testing time; features can change or be removed throughout the process and thus it is sensible to leave the manual writing until the final feature set is somewhat guaranteed.

So when testing a new product the standard method is to give a brief explanation of what it should do and let the testers figure the rest out themselves. This also helps the company gauge how simple it is, or not, for novices to quickly understand how it works.

Again I can only apologise if this seems harsh, but that really is the reality of it.

Cheers,
Brian

ok apology accepted...was going through rough time and took things wrong as usual...sorry...I did not mean to call you out.or anything... players seem to confuse me a tad... mever mentiomed your name but that of course did not work... I also apologize ... while this was happening broke my arm bady(still in recovery mode... then my mother dies from long and rerrible battle with cancer...It all likely bothered me more then it should have,... hope you make many sales sir... will likely buy them some time as I have a re addiction... sorry I took you wrong and stopped testing because of it. I understand your reasons. I was likely out of my mind on pain meds... morphine knocks me out big time. I would try to work on a song... half hour goes by listening to same section of song over and over... came out of nodding out and realized time for bed lol... that all said I was the ass.

[joeyluck]

I see the players as a extension of a instrument.
Like for example the dual arp, If a synth don't have an arp built in, well add it and there you go.
Same with cords and the rest, they just enhances the synths with features that are missing
That's my thought anyway

Yeah and they connect like a cartridge to a video game system



Or can be seen functioning like a game genie