I am looking forward to improve my composition techniques, but no music school will take me in
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
Thanks in advance!
I vehemently disagree with the thought that creativity is hard to teach. it’s something I’ve been thinking about for 20+ years now, and it’s something that *doesn’t* get taught, but that may be because it’s ridiculously easy/unnecessary to teach. want to be creative? be curious, and experiment.selig wrote: ↑27 Oct 2019Sounds more like you want arranging/orchestrating techniques, no? Composing doesn't take any training, you either have good ideas for melodies or you don't. Sure, you can refine technique, and you can learn techniques. But being "creative" is difficult to teach IMO!
I was fully convinced that music theory was all I needed to know in order to learn to compose. But I found theory actually made it more difficult to compose, because I kept looking for a "rule" to tell me what note or chord should come next. And that just shut down all creativity for me - maybe it would be different for others.
So what I did was started over with composing, and just recorded what I felt. From there you can use theory to create harmonies (but sometimes it's better to just "hear" stuff, or just try stuff until you find something that works). Counterpoint has rules too, but you don't need to know them to just start trying stuff and learning how different approaches make you feel.
IMO, what's important about composition is learning how to express your feelings, and how to make your listener "feel" something when listening to your music. No music school can teach how to do this, in my experience!
Rick Beato's youtube channel. He also has a book i believe. Pretty sure he woud have covered the niche topic of counterpoint at some stage. If not im pretty sure if you sent him an email he would specifically do a video for you on that subject (he must be running out of topics to cover by now!)
on that id like to add: if you create a piece that you appreciate yourself in any form, you know its theoretically also appreciable for other human beings, since you are one of those too - and therefore the piece has the potential be considered "good art". it does also have that potential if you dont appreciate it in any way at all, because other people might have other preferences or highlight elements you arent even aware of, but you wouldnt have any guarantees for that.
I couldn’t agree with that more. this goes right to the heart of the “is it possible for music to be objectively bad?” thread from a couple of weeks ago, and is why the answer to that question is objectively “no”.Chizmata wrote: ↑28 Oct 2019on that id like to add: if you create a piece that you appreciate yourself in any form, you know its theoretically also appreciable for other human beings, since you are one of those too - and therefore the piece has the potential be considered "good art". it does also have that potential if you dont appreciate it in any way at all, because other people might have other preferences or highlight elements you arent even aware of, but you wouldnt have any guarantees for that.
I agree with you both. Creativity is simply the ability to combine what you have learned to create something new. Music theory is really only a small part of it. A helpful tool to express your own creativity in a culture. In this sense, it is learning, but at the same time you can not teach one's personal creativity, because each person makes their own individual experiences in life. There really needs to be only the enthusiasm for abstractly combining knowledge and experience. And that is always a personal thing.guitfnky wrote: ↑28 Oct 2019
I vehemently disagree with the thought that creativity is hard to teach. it’s something I’ve been thinking about for 20+ years now, and it’s something that *doesn’t* get taught, but that may be because it’s ridiculously easy/unnecessary to teach. want to be creative? be curious, and experiment.
I'm sure creativity increases just by experimenting and such (certainly happened with me with my percussive projects and mixing techniques) but I've been 12 years into making music and I still can't make a melody that sounds good or catchy for even 4 bars. I wonder if there are certain things you just can't be that creative at. I'm trying to learn music theory (Selig, don't roll your eyes, haha), learn a melody instrument and just practice covers of my favorite songs to perhaps comprehend the existing creativity and understand what about it makes it sounds appealing.guitfnky wrote: ↑28 Oct 2019
I vehemently disagree with the thought that creativity is hard to teach. it’s something I’ve been thinking about for 20+ years now, and it’s something that *doesn’t* get taught, but that may be because it’s ridiculously easy/unnecessary to teach. want to be creative? be curious, and experiment.
that’s literally it.
you’re conflating creativity with subjective quality. you may not like what you’re hearing, but that doesn’t mean you’re not being creative.ravisoni wrote: ↑29 Oct 2019I'm sure creativity increases just by experimenting and such (certainly happened with me with my percussive projects and mixing techniques) but I've been 12 years into making music and I still can't make a melody that sounds good or catchy for even 4 bars. I wonder if there are certain things you just can't be that creative at. I'm trying to learn music theory (Selig, don't roll your eyes, haha), learn a melody instrument and just practice covers of my favorite songs to perhaps comprehend the existing creativity and understand what about it makes it sounds appealing.guitfnky wrote: ↑28 Oct 2019
I vehemently disagree with the thought that creativity is hard to teach. it’s something I’ve been thinking about for 20+ years now, and it’s something that *doesn’t* get taught, but that may be because it’s ridiculously easy/unnecessary to teach. want to be creative? be curious, and experiment.
that’s literally it.
Maybe we're defining "creativity" differently. This is just what I've observed working with creative people (and trying to be one myself) in my life. And I'm also seeing this from a professional angle - a creative professional is what I'm talking about, if that makes any difference.guitfnky wrote: ↑28 Oct 2019
I vehemently disagree with the thought that creativity is hard to teach. it’s something I’ve been thinking about for 20+ years now, and it’s something that *doesn’t* get taught, but that may be because it’s ridiculously easy/unnecessary to teach. want to be creative? be curious, and experiment.
that’s literally it.
in that case, I'd argue that you're not talking about creativity--you're talking about quality and productivity.selig wrote: ↑30 Oct 2019Maybe we're defining "creativity" differently. This is just what I've observed working with creative people (and trying to be one myself) in my life. And I'm also seeing this from a professional angle - a creative professional is what I'm talking about, if that makes any difference.guitfnky wrote: ↑28 Oct 2019
I vehemently disagree with the thought that creativity is hard to teach. it’s something I’ve been thinking about for 20+ years now, and it’s something that *doesn’t* get taught, but that may be because it’s ridiculously easy/unnecessary to teach. want to be creative? be curious, and experiment.
that’s literally it.
So yea, creativity can be cultivated, but you can't grow a plant from a rock - you need a proper seed, and the seed you start with determines the plant you get in the end. We don't all start out in life with the same "seeds", that's all I'm saying.
if we're talking about quality, your seed example makes sense, insofar as each person's capacity for quality is different. still though, like any endeavor, one's ability increases with practice. quality is relative. ideally, it shouldn't be seen as relative to what everyone else is doing, but relative to what the creative individual has done in the past.selig wrote: ↑30 Oct 2019I didn't mean to imply creativity cannot be cultivated - but if you don't have the concept in your DNA, it's difficult to bring it out and enhance it. What most folks teach (what they call creativity) is ways to work around creative blocks, and techniques for finishing projects on a deadline when creativity is nowhere to be found. These are valuable techniques, but they are not "creativity".
again, this conflates an action (singing) with being good at that action (becoming a successful singer). the only thing you need to do to be a singer is to sing.
I agree with a lot of this. it's certainly not "wrong" to link creativity and quality (since "wrong" is a subjective judgment in itself).ravisoni wrote: ↑30 Oct 2019Great points, guitfnky, but I don't find it wrong to conflate creativity and quality. Often times we pursue quality and expect the outcome to be pleasant after having used creativity towards that purpose. Creativity (which I sometimes also associate with uniqueness) as a standalone surely is enjoyed by almost everyone who partakes in any it; any creation we engage in is pleasurable. But a lot of us desire something more to come off our creativity/experimentation, be it quality music (regardless of what your baselines for quality are) or something else. Maybe people are not using the technically correct definition of creativity, perhaps that's why we're having this discussion, but I feel it is an incomplete discussion if you divorce quality from creativity. In order for someone to call me creative, they would have to find my work either interesting or unique or insert your own adjective here, and be pleased by it. A professional pianist may put together a composition, and a 3 year old may play with the keyboard too, and to them both they were creative, but when taken in the context of relativism, the person who knew how to weave together non discordant notes together will be considered both creative and quality-laden. And I think that's what a lot of people are after, even if they don't approach it from a sharing-with-others perspective. Sometimes they want their own creativity to be on par with something highly experimental they heard or something highly pleasing they heard. And they're simply not able to match that level in a lifetime regardless of their skill or training (especially true if music came to them later in their lives, as a matter of science).
I'm with you in that almost anything you do is creative, but whatever comes off that creativity will inevitably be compared to a known good. And that's fine, maybe even required, to keep pushing your own bounds in both creativity and quality.
1 - This should be called Britney Spears great Escape. Just because this is a fugue and she simply disappeared... Interesting stuff though, it's quite a good example of something very simple that can be reconstructed in a quite exquisite manner and be more interesting for some. Others might thing this ruined the song. Right?
Oh nice! Another kizomba producer, I never thought I would meet anyone using Reason for that hahaha. I am actually Spanish but learnt to dance Kizomba five years ago from Tony Gomes, Angolan teacher. I DJ kizomba, ghetto zouk, semba, tarraxinha mostly but some kompa, coladeira and caribean zouk too. Do you have a link for the piece you composed?mcatalao wrote: ↑31 Oct 20191 - This should be called Britney Spears great Escape. Just because this is a fugue and she simply disappeared... Interesting stuff though, it's quite a good example of something very simple that can be reconstructed in a quite exquisite manner and be more interesting for some. Others might thing this ruined the song. Right?
2 - I've done a couple kizombas, I'm from Portugal and i know the style very well... African music styles are not so easy to do as most people would think. One of the things i find more most difficult on Kizomba is the bass positioning. It is usually out of the first beat, quite soft but felt.
I've done one kizomba for a client, and i created another 2 that are more or less on the shelf, because I'm not very fond of the ideaof cultural appropriation, though music styles, have their roots, but they are universal.
Kizomba is a fun, dance-able rhythm! I really like African styles... i also hear Semba, Kuduro, Mornas, Culaderas and Funana's from Cabo Verde, Kwela from South Africa, i grew up listening to all sorts of music on the radio and TV and Duo Ouro Negro, Dany Silva, Cesária Évora, etc, were on the TV a lot. But I'm as white as they come... So i don't know. But i really like the rhythms and some of the songs, and if i get more clients, I'll keep doing it.
TBH, knowing these styles, and obviously imho, i think counterpoint at this level is hard to apply without deriving too much from the style. But it can be surreptitiously done, like if you push some lines to different instruments, and so on. I mean, a lot of the logic behind counterpoint is applied on pop techniques, and we even don't think about it.
So, learn it, do it. If it doesn't work no harm done!
BTW, where are you from? Was just hoping to find another Portuguese speakers over here!!!!
Thanks for the videos, I will go through them.mcatalao wrote: ↑30 Oct 2019So, on subject...
Well, if you talk to 20 guys they will tell you 20 books, on any matter.
I lurk a bit on the Orchestration group, and over there they talk about Keenan, and some others... But most generally they say "Stay away from Walter Piston's book. It's over complicated...).
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FIW023O/re ... frK2Upc_f0
It was also there i found Alan Belkins Video series on Youtube:
But imho, the best way to learn counterpoint is from the masters, and i don't mean just hear it. If you have some proficiency at an instrument, specially keyboard, start by learning some Bachs inventions and study them or stuff from the Well Tempered Keyboard. With a book it is better, because you can connect the examples to the sound and written stuff.
These are great times with internet. If no school will take you, just get on forums, download stuff from IMSLP, and start reading it and playing it on the keyboard or making mockups on reason.
But like i said, these will help you build foundations for your work. Then on top of that you must find your own craft.
Good Luck,
MC
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