Fighting with Reason

[Riverman]

I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix.
I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

[Raveshaper]

It could be psychosomatic, or it could be something else.

During the course of my research I have discovered that the fastest way to make something sound "better" is to give it motion and make it dynamic or organic in some way. It could be that other hosts like PT have some scheme of dynamic filtering that modulates to give the "best sound", sort of like hi-fi speakers or headphones are tuned to "sweeten" the sound. The reason for the flat sound in Reason is because it is flat. You have to modulate it yourself. It's completely set and forget, hence nothing dynamic is happening. What you hear is what you have. Maybe that's the culprit?

[Noplan]

switch to the dark theme in reason. that should solve your problem.

[Gorgon]

I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix.
I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

Why don't you upload some examples?

[-008']

Because Reason and PT have different pan laws, maybe? I suppose you can just emulate that with a Selig gain on every channel, using (DAW XYZ's) pan law settings, to test that theory.

Other than that, Is there anything inside reasons master inserts?

I'm all out of ideas after that

[Creativemind]

Regarding dynamics or pan laws or anything like that...are you talking just importing the vocal and doing absolutely nothing to it?

I've had a similar feeling when importing a piano wav from FL Studio (using the Korg M1 vst) into Reason and at first I'm like, does this sound different. After a bit of retrospect I come to the conclusion it doesn't.

Check this out as well:-

http://www.image-line.com/support/FLHel ... _audio.htm

[selig]

I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix.
I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

Pans should not be used in a comparison test, best to use raw stereo files for every track (even mono tracks like vocals) just to be sure. BUT - it should be noted Reason has a less common pan law (!) that BOOSTS the levels panned hard left/right by 3 dB. More common pan laws CUT the signal in the center. Same difference in the end, but it can cause issues. For example, if you import a normalized sine wave into Reason and pan it hard left/right, you'll clip the outputs by 3 dB! But I digress…

A test to try, if you're interested, is to ALSO import the audio files into Reason so you are comparing apples to apples. Bounce both out as 24 bit stereo .wav files. Compare…
First thing to be SURE is that neither mix is clipping with all faders at zero (unity) in both mixers. If they ARE clipping you need to reduce all channels and export again. Or you can import all audio into both apps and reduce by the same level (-12 dB?) in both apps - best to reduce the stem audio files if the mix is clipping and then import to both apps to do your testing.

For further fun, import both mix files into BOTH apps, invert one of them and see if they cancel in BOTH apps. If they do not cancel in either/both apps, try measuring the residual level and see if they are the same.

IF you're doing the test correctly, I can't imagine there would be any differences, and even if so the differences would be quite small. But the test is easy, and one way or the other it will end speculation.

If a noticeable difference is measured, THEN we can begin to discuss the "why".

[nooomy]

I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix.
I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

Its all in your head.
There is no diffrence in playing the audio files in pro tools or reason.

When you reach a sertain level of producing skill you can produce what ever in what ever, then its about which workflow you prefere.

Maybe the workflow in pro tools fits you better?

[Riverman]

I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix.
I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

Why don't you upload some examples?

Sure.

edit, actually I'll upload something else asap, as that's a work in progress.

It's all very subtle, but I hear it. With vocals it's even more pronounced. I'm just constantly having to adjust levels in Reason. It's never quite all sitting. In ProTools once I get the levels it all gels. It's weird. And I love working in Reason, I've been using it since V1, I'm speaking as a fan.

[Riverman]

Because Reason and PT have different pan laws, maybe? I suppose you can just emulate that with a Selig gain on every channel, using (DAW XYZ's) pan law settings, to test that theory.

Other than that, Is there anything inside reasons master inserts?

I'm all out of ideas after that

Yeah, but it doesn't seem to matter if I'm using master bus stuff, 4 band parallel compression etc, or the Master compressor on the SSL desk, or a combo of both, I still feel like I'm fighting with it to get vocals especially, sitting.

I might try getting that multiband comp rack extension, as often in Tools, I mix into a waves multiband compression.
But I'm talking about getting it all sitting better simply loading up the dry stems! Even before adding master bus stuff in Pro Tools.

[Riverman]

Regarding dynamics or pan laws or anything like that...are you talking just importing the vocal and doing absolutely nothing to it?

I've had a similar feeling when importing a piano wav from FL Studio (using the Korg M1 vst) into Reason and at first I'm like, does this sound different. After a bit of retrospect I come to the conclusion it doesn't.

Check this out as well:-

http://www.image-line.com/support/FLHel ... _audio.htm

Importing the individual stripes. Not just single files. It's in the summing.

[Riverman]

I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix.
I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

Pans should not be used in a comparison test, best to use raw stereo files for every track (even mono tracks like vocals) just to be sure. BUT - it should be noted Reason has a less common pan law (!) that BOOSTS the levels panned hard left/right by 3 dB. More common pan laws CUT the signal in the center. Same difference in the end, but it can cause issues. For example, if you import a normalized sine wave into Reason and pan it hard left/right, you'll clip the outputs by 3 dB! But I digress…

A test to try, if you're interested, is to ALSO import the audio files into Reason so you are comparing apples to apples. Bounce both out as 24 bit stereo .wav files. Compare…
First thing to be SURE is that neither mix is clipping with all faders at zero (unity) in both mixers. If they ARE clipping you need to reduce all channels and export again. Or you can import all audio into both apps and reduce by the same level (-12 dB?) in both apps - best to reduce the stem audio files if the mix is clipping and then import to both apps to do your testing.

For further fun, import both mix files into BOTH apps, invert one of them and see if they cancel in BOTH apps. If they do not cancel in either/both apps, try measuring the residual level and see if they are the same.

IF you're doing the test correctly, I can't imagine there would be any differences, and even if so the differences would be quite small. But the test is easy, and one way or the other it will end speculation.

If a noticeable difference is measured, THEN we can begin to discuss the "why".

Thanks for this!

[Riverman]

I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix.
I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

Its all in your head.
There is no diffrence in playing the audio files in pro tools or reason.

When you reach a sertain level of producing skill you can produce what ever in what ever, then its about which workflow you prefere.

Maybe the workflow in pro tools fits you better?

Well that's just rude. No it's not just in my head, sheesh... there is a difference going on in the summing somehow.

[Riverman]

I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix.
I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

Why don't you upload some examples?

Sure.

edit, actually I'll upload something else asap, as that's a work in progress.

It's all very subtle, but I hear it. With vocals it's even more pronounced. I'm just constantly having to adjust levels in Reason. It's never quite all sitting. In ProTools once I get the levels it all gels. It's weird. And I love working in Reason, I've been using it since V1, I'm speaking as a fan.

Ok here's something.

This is where I got up to in Reason. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... Reason.aif

And this after I imported it into Pro Tools. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... oTools.mp3

Yes Yes, I know it's louder, but that's not all that's going on.

[Creativemind]

I do happen to agree with OP, I do find, when working in Reason, my mixes tend to sound muddy quite quickly after adding a few tracks of instruments and before anyone says EQ, (not saying I don't EQ, starting to use it more now) but even if I don't EQ on Logic or FL Studio, my mixes don't sound muddy as quickly as they do on Reason. There has to be a reason excuse the pun. That's why I started a thread about this the other week, I asked, and merely asked, could it be anything to do with delay compensation, it probably wasn't in fairness but there has to be something these software's are doing for me that Reason isn't?

It happened last night as it goes...working on an electronic track, had a malstrom pad, a combi piano, a subgrouped redrum (kick, open and closed hit hat for now) and it has what sounds like a Lately Bass NN-XT Patch I got from a refill sample. It just started to sound really muddy. I tried solo'ing everything to find a sound I could hear that I wasn't liking, then when I found the offender, I tried eq'ing (notching horrible bits out) using the M-Class EQ and it still doesn't really sound great mixwise. Tried adjusting levels etc etc and eq'd some other parts and it still isn't really gelling that well as a whole. There's 2 M-Class EQ's on different tracks now tryna clean it up as well.

Another thing that keeps happening in Reason as well is the sample in the NN-XT is quiet. The volume at the top of the NN-XT is up to it's max and the Amp volume is too but it still sounded quiet so then I went for the gain as opposed to the fader on the mix channel as I saw on a video that you should only use those faders for minor tweaks and fades?

[Creativemind]

I would like to know what you mean by summing and how you feel this is affecting things OP?

[WongoTheSane]

Ok here's something.

This is where I got up to in Reason. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... Reason.aif

And this after I imported it into Pro Tools. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... oTools.mp3

Yes Yes, I know it's louder, but that's not all that's going on.

Would it be possible for you to export exactly the same segment from both DAWs (e.g. the same 4 or 8 bars), at the same tempo? As it is, it's quite difficult to synchronize them to try out the null test Selig suggested...

[selig]

I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix.
I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

Why don't you upload some examples?

Sure.

edit, actually I'll upload something else asap, as that's a work in progress.

It's all very subtle, but I hear it. With vocals it's even more pronounced. I'm just constantly having to adjust levels in Reason. It's never quite all sitting. In ProTools once I get the levels it all gels. It's weird. And I love working in Reason, I've been using it since V1, I'm speaking as a fan.

OK, it started with "It all just sounds so much better balanced and together" to "It's all very subtle, but I hear it", to "???"

This is the typically progression btw, not picking on you specifically here, just speaking historically. Let's do the tests and we will all see, but I must warn you that you are far from the first to make this claim and then back it down a bit, then end up having to admit there's no difference in the end.
But maybe this time it's different (and I mean that with all seriousness, because that's the way my mind works - always open to the possibility that something has changed in one DAW or the other (maybe even a bug?) since the last time these types of tests were performed).


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[EnochLight]

No offense meant to the OP, just playing devil's advocate, but haven't we already read a million posts/threads on someone claiming audio sounds different in Reason compared to other DAW, but it has already been demonstrated (ad infinitum) that audio from Reason is exactly the same as it is in other DAW? I mean right down to the audio nulling?

Maybe Selig can chime in on this...

*EDIT - d'oh!!! We posted at the same time LOL!

[selig]

I love creating music in Reason, but man, I always feel like I'm fighting to get a mixdown working. Especially getting vocals to sit in the mix.
I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

Why don't you upload some examples?

Sure.

edit, actually I'll upload something else asap, as that's a work in progress.

It's all very subtle, but I hear it. With vocals it's even more pronounced. I'm just constantly having to adjust levels in Reason. It's never quite all sitting. In ProTools once I get the levels it all gels. It's weird. And I love working in Reason, I've been using it since V1, I'm speaking as a fan.

Ok here's something.

This is where I got up to in Reason. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... Reason.aif

And this after I imported it into Pro Tools. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/976 ... oTools.mp3

Yes Yes, I know it's louder, but that's not all that's going on.

OK, but if it's LOUDER, it sound BETTER. There's really no way to compare what you call "subtle" when one version is louder. The trick would be to have PT sound better when it's SOFTER.

When I say "louder sounds better" I'm not just suggesting it - it's a very well known phenomenon and based on how we (humans) hear.

This is what I would have guessed, that one app was louder due to pan laws (or clipping in one app and not the other or any other possible issue), and that you're simply preferring the louder version.

Do the test where they are both the same level and compare again, then as I said before we can begin to discuss what might be different. As it is, we have now confirmed there IS a different (in level). Proper testing procedures would suggest to eliminate the known differences and compare again. If you're interested, that is, as there's no need to pursue this if you already know the answer.


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[selig]

I do happen to agree with OP, I do find, when working in Reason, my mixes tend to sound muddy quite quickly after adding a few tracks of instruments and before anyone says EQ, (not saying I don't EQ, starting to use it more now) but even if I don't EQ on Logic or FL Studio, my mixes don't sound muddy as quickly as they do on Reason. There has to be a reason excuse the pun. That's why I started a thread about this the other week, I asked, and merely asked, could it be anything to do with delay compensation, it probably wasn't in fairness but there has to be something these software's are doing for me that Reason isn't?

It happened last night as it goes...working on an electronic track, had a malstrom pad, a combi piano, a subgrouped redrum (kick, open and closed hit hat for now) and it has what sounds like a Lately Bass NN-XT Patch I got from a refill sample. It just started to sound really muddy. I tried solo'ing everything to find a sound I could hear that I wasn't liking, then when I found the offender, I tried eq'ing (notching horrible bits out) using the M-Class EQ and it still doesn't really sound great mixwise. Tried adjusting levels etc etc and eq'd some other parts and it still isn't really gelling that well as a whole. There's 2 M-Class EQ's on different tracks now tryna clean it up as well.

Another thing that keeps happening in Reason as well is the sample in the NN-XT is quiet. The volume at the top of the NN-XT is up to it's max and the Amp volume is too but it still sounded quiet so then I went for the gain as opposed to the fader on the mix channel as I saw on a video that you should only use those faders for minor tweaks and fades?

Levels such as you describe in the NNXT have no bearing on "muddyness" that I'm aware of - that's a different subject. Using the faders only for minor tweaks? There's no reason for that I can think of. But again that's off topic for this thread.

Let me also add that doing these sort of comparison tests isn't a simple thing to do correctly. Case in point, the OP did the test and didn't end up with files at the same level - this is ESSENTIAL, as you cannot ask the question "is this process coloring the sound in any way" and then introduce another variable. You must remove all the other variables so you are actually comparing apples to apples.

Again, it's not a simple thing to do and you must be very "scientific" about your process, mainly because "garbage in, garbage out".

If your test isn't "sound", your results cannot be counted on to be sound.


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[Logismos]

I bounce out stems and import them into ProTools and bam. Without adding a single plugin or touching the faders, it all just sounds so much better balanced and together.
Why?
It's so bizarre and it's without fail.

Perhaps it's all in the timestretching and track bit depth processing.
What bit depth per channel,and masterbus sum is protools doing atmo? 32,or 64bit per channel?
Also,people may not notice while importing to nnxt-there is a filter enabled by default=when compared on/off,there is a noticeable difference.
The cloned output does not null 100%

[Yonatan]

The volume level apart, still the sound example you deliver from Reason sounds distorted, compressed, dead and flat, while the other one from ProTools sound alive and with way better dynamic. These exampels are not subtle when I listen on headphones. They are huge. That makes me wonder what might be the error in the equation.
I would want to see the whole process and chain before the export and as well during export. Some factors are obviously making them sound so different.

[Logismos]

The volume level apart, still the sound example you deliver from Reason sounds distorted, compressed, dead and flat, while the other one from ProTools sound alive and with way better dynamic. These exampels are not subtle when I listen on headphones. They are huge. That makes me wonder what might be the error in the equation.
I would want to see the whole process and chain before the export and as well during export. Some factors are obviously making them sound so different.

If user looks at them 2 sound file linked examples,they are different formats for a start=no point testing them files-1 says aiff.1 says mp3.

[Exowildebeest]

Possibly you have stretching enabled on the .wav files in Reason, and they'll be affected by that if the .wavs were tagged with a tempo different from what the project is set to.

I don't know how this works in Protools, but it may have its own stetching going on.