Automatic Delay Compensation

[Creativemind]

Hi All!

I seem to get muddy mixes on Reason quite easily once I add a few tracks.

Could no delay compensation in Reason or Automatic Delay Compensation be one of the reasons? I have 2 tracks with a combi going on, that's 8 devices overall.

I know it's hard to tell without seeing / hearing my track but just a hunch.

Thanks!

[Gulale]

I don't believe Reason magically muddy up mixes. Does inability to have delay compensation result that? Most probably yes. But that is not all. Using leaner phase EQ for similar low frequency material than non leaner EQ make the difference. As far as I know there is none even in the Re market. That is why most Reason users create their music in Reason and mix elsewhere.

[selig]

Delay compensation is most important on parallel tracks - do you use parallel tracks? You won't notice a delay of a handful of samples on it's own, only when it's side by side with the original non-delayed signal, which will produce a comb filtering effect (not good). It's easy to fix with Normen Henson's VMG-01 Sample Delay.
https://shop.propellerheads.se/browse/? ... developer=

@Gulale
(making an assumption you mean Linear Phase EQ, if not then disregard)
Linear phase EQ is not something that is typically used when mixing because of the huge delay and high CPU hit. It's more commonly used in mastering when it's used at all. Then theres the "pre-ringing" issue which is what drives may away from linear phase EQ on some material.

It's certainly not a cure all for everything IMO.

[Gulale]

That is absolutly true. We don't even use the same compressor for everything. Same for linear phase EQ. It is a tool which can save us from headache. It has saved me numerous times.

[gak]

I have no idea anymore. I often get fooled by one thing or another.

Hardware, it's the only way to be sure

[Last Alternative]

Polar is the worst for latency. I can't even use it. Reason certainly needs automatic delay compensation. A lot of RE's have high latency. It's not just from parallel processing.
Well... on second thought, the dry/wet knob makes it parallel processing, right?

[Creativemind]

No Selig I wasn't using parallel processing. It just seems to happen a lot on Reason that I get muddy mixes and doesn't seem to happen on FL Studio. Thinking about it though, delay compensation would mean more phasing issues than muddiness so perhaps there's another reason.

[ljekio]

I guess every reason's sequencer track (or/and mix/audio channels) must have manual offset parameter. Positive and negative. And most of latencies problem will solved.

[Ottostrom]

No Selig I wasn't using parallel processing. It just seems to happen a lot on Reason that I get muddy mixes and doesn't seem to happen on FL Studio. Thinking about it though, delay compensation would mean more phasing issues than muddiness so perhaps there's another reason.

Yeah, I don't think delay compensation would fix it. Sounds more like a mixing problem.

[joeyluck]

There can certainly be issues involving delay that aren't associated with parallel processing. Difficult to know without examples. But when writing songs with parts that closely compliment each other, it's understandable that varying amounts of delay throughout those parts can affect the mix. Would be good to have an example of what you classify as "muddy." There can be many culprits.

[riemac]

No Selig I wasn't using parallel processing. It just seems to happen a lot on Reason that I get muddy mixes and doesn't seem to happen on FL Studio. Thinking about it though, delay compensation would mean more phasing issues than muddiness so perhaps there's another reason.

Maybe you could post a Reason project with muddiness problems, so we could analyse if it is a mixing or a Reason problem.

[Soul One]

Delay compensation is most important on parallel tracks

Well, it´s important on ALL tracks, parallel or not. If I slap a maximizer on my drum bus it gets delayed whereas my instruments bus doesn´t (because I don´t use that maximizer on my instruments). Result: my groove is gone...

[Exowildebeest]

Delay compensation is most important on parallel tracks

Well, it´s important on ALL tracks, parallel or not. If I slap a maximizer on my drum bus it gets delayed whereas my instruments bus doesn´t (because I don´t use that maximizer on my instruments). Result: my groove is gone...

A few samples of delay won't cause the groove to be lost.

We're talking much less than a millisecond here, in most cases!

If you're a real perfectionist, of course you can compensate. I sometimes do it on general principle, but it's really not needed if it doesn't make an audible difference.

[selig]

Delay compensation is most important on parallel tracks

Well, it´s important on ALL tracks, parallel or not. If I slap a maximizer on my drum bus it gets delayed whereas my instruments bus doesn´t (because I don´t use that maximizer on my instruments). Result: my groove is gone...

Yes, assuming you're using look ahead because that's 4 MILLISECONDS of delay. But that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about samples of delay!

If you're talking about real drummers, 4 ms is probably not enough delay to get them ON the beat (ducking)…

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[Creativemind]

I realised that it was the preset I was using on the bass which was the culprit (in this particular case) but I have noticed my mixes seeming muddier a lot and not on FL Studio, I seem to get it a lot on Reason. Just wondered if people who knew a lot more about delay compensation and it might have been the issue, may or may not be in other cases.

Anyway, I've changed the bass and now I have another problem that always seems to happen on Reason happening now. The bass is quiet in the mix and when you raise it clips a lot and sounds distorted to hell. If I turn it down it's barely audible within the mix.

The answer it seems to me is to turn everything else down and then raise the master output level?

[selig]

I realised that it was the preset I was using on the bass which was the culprit (in this particular case) but I have noticed my mixes seeming muddier a lot and not on FL Studio, I seem to get it a lot on Reason. Just wondered if people who knew a lot more about delay compensation and it might have been the issue, may or may not be in other cases.

Anyway, I've changed the bass and now I have another problem that always seems to happen on Reason happening now. The bass is quiet in the mix and when you raise it clips a lot and sounds distorted to hell. If I turn it down it's barely audible within the mix.

The answer it seems to me is to turn everything else down and then raise the master output level?

If you turn everything down and raise the master you'll be right back where you started - did you mean to say turn everything down and turn up the bass? You can also just turn down the master and turn up the bass if I'm understanding you correctly.



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[Creativemind]

Now I've changed the bass preset again. Not sure if it sounded good, keep changing my mind. Wondering if it's the right bass for the genre as I don't know.

I feel like I need someone to teach me how to mix a house track from the start in Reason from the ground up lol!

[Creativemind]

I realised that it was the preset I was using on the bass which was the culprit (in this particular case) but I have noticed my mixes seeming muddier a lot and not on FL Studio, I seem to get it a lot on Reason. Just wondered if people who knew a lot more about delay compensation and it might have been the issue, may or may not be in other cases.

Anyway, I've changed the bass and now I have another problem that always seems to happen on Reason happening now. The bass is quiet in the mix and when you raise it clips a lot and sounds distorted to hell. If I turn it down it's barely audible within the mix.

The answer it seems to me is to turn everything else down and then raise the master output level?

If you turn everything down and raise the master you'll be right back where you started - did you mean to say turn everything down and turn up the bass? You can also just turn down the master and turn up the bass if I'm understanding you correctly.



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Turn everything down by a couple of dB, everything except the bass. The bass was quiet in the mix but if I turned it up it was clipping (although I've seen a video saying that clipping on individual channels doesn't matter, it's the final output that matters) but it was sounding distorted and so I turned the bass down until it didn't sound bad. Right on that cusp. Then had to lower the volume of all the other tracks so it wasn't quiet in the mix but then the overall track sounds quieter (although I have a M-Class Maximizer on the master output which should be keeping everything at 0dB).

[Creativemind]

Seems to me you really need to be a very good mixer in Reason. I can't seem to get a good bass sound for old skool house if I don't use the house bass (old skool Korg M1 sounding) organ combi. I just want a nice fat bass which is just thick and big but not clicky, sort of like Solid or Lately Bass and the Lately patches don't seem great if you ask me either. The lately patches on ReasonlLack something that the records I've heard the real one on, such as Gat Décor - Passion (Do You Want It Right Now) seem to have.

I'm trying to make a bass on Malstrom but the track just isn't sounding like a nice mix now. It's all started to feel muddy now lol!

[gak]

Just in case anyone is paying attention:

I've recently been futzing around with my "since version 3 lifetime updates FL studio OMG it's so completely wacked" and can tell you that even with them, delay compensation isn't "delay compensation"

As I said earlier, every-single host is so different, it's really hard to know what is and isn't real anymore.

[Loque]

Seems to me you really need to be a very good mixer in Reason. I can't seem to get a good bass sound for old skool house if I don't use the house bass (old skool Korg M1 sounding) organ combi. I just want a nice fat bass which is just thick and big but not clicky, sort of like Solid or Lately Bass and the Lately patches don't seem great if you ask me either. The lately patches on ReasonlLack something that the records I've heard the real one on, such as Gat Décor - Passion (Do You Want It Right Now) seem to have.

I'm trying to make a bass on Malstrom but the track just isn't sounding like a nice mix now. It's all started to feel muddy now lol!

Layering with BP filtering, EQing, shaping and FX is the key. If its muddy, HP the base and/or duck it with the kick by using a compressor with low attack or a dynamic EQ.

[Gorgon]

Anyway, I've changed the bass and now I have another problem that always seems to happen on Reason happening now. The bass is quiet in the mix and when you raise it clips a lot and sounds distorted to hell. If I turn it down it's barely audible within the mix.

Have you ever heard of this thing called "EQ"?

[Creativemind]

Yeah lol!

Never realised to use it for volume though. Is that what you meant?

Sorry but sometimes the most obvious thing doesn't occur to me lol!

It's because with music production, no-one really teaches you it in a regimented way. Do this, then this, then this...etc!

[Gorgon]

Yeah lol!

Never realised to use it for volume though. Is that what you meant?

Sorry but sometimes the most obvious thing doesn't occur to me lol!

It's because with music production, no-one really teaches you it in a regimented way. Do this, then this, then this...etc!

If your tracks sound muddy, it's usually because there's too many voices in the same frequencies. That's where EQ comes in. Make sure that the higher sounds don't have any lows, make sure that the lower sounds don't interfere with eachother, that sort of thing. Start with the basics.

[8cros]

Hi All!

I seem to get muddy mixes on Reason quite easily once I add a few tracks.

Could no delay compensation in Reason or Automatic Delay Compensation be one of the reasons? I have 2 tracks with a combi going on, that's 8 devices overall.

I know it's hard to tell without seeing / hearing my track but just a hunch.

Thanks!

To achieve a large volume loss of the addition of two sine, when the phase of one of them moves, you need to exactly achieve a superposition of waves, because it is a very short section. If you take a sawtooth wave, you do not get the volume of failure more - 6dB.
This is due to a short loud peak at phase coincidence, it is always noticed.
With noise would be no change in volume. If you take two different noise and a one bit delay, you do not get any significant details.
For the first bass octave a delay must be very large. A period of approximately 23ms. That's a lot.

Try DDL-1 to remove any problems with the bass.