Using a Loudness Meter

[8cros]

If all has nothing to say, I will continue.

Conclusions.

Scream 4 tape is an amazing algorithm.

Isotope is not a panacea, even at a moderate maximization.

[phaza]

I've talked to a professional mastering engineer who told me they want NOTHING on the master channel and at least -.4dB of signal to work with.

Can anyone explain this? Is the master engineer banned from using the gain knob? As long as it's not clipping what's the problem?

[selig]

I've talked to a professional mastering engineer who told me they want NOTHING on the master channel and at least -.4dB of signal to work with.

Can anyone explain this? Is the master engineer banned from using the gain knob? As long as it's not clipping what's the problem?

My guess is that mastering engineers can have a tough job now that there are so many "home" mixers submitting material, and their suggestions are based on experience over time. That is to say, this advice is probably how they can best serve their clients in the simplest terms.

I would guess that if they said "get as close to clipping as possible, but not over" then they would get a lot of mixes that had limiters on the master, or suffered from inter-sample peaks.

Here's why it's best to suggest a generous amount of headroom on mixes submitted for mastering. First of all, they don't know how much the mix engineer knows and how much experience they have. Remembering that a mix won't necessarily peak at exactly the same level each time you play it (due to random FX such as reverbs and any FX swept with a non-synced LFO), there could be a mix that peaks at -1 dBFS when the mixer listened to it and measured it, but clips upon export because the random elements aligned differently upon export than upon playback. While this may be a rare occurrence, non-the-less the mastering engineer has to speak to the "least common denominators" when stating the submission specs.

There's also the afore-mentioned inter-sample peaks, which not ever engineer checks for, and leaving that amount of headroom accounts for worst case scenarios in those situations.

In other words, asking for 3-6 dB headroom is most likely what they have found they HAVE to do to cover all situations so that they can do the best job possible without having to reject submissions etc.




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[8cros]

I've talked to a professional mastering engineer who told me they want NOTHING on the master channel and at least -.4dB of signal to work with.

Can anyone explain this? Is the master engineer banned from using the gain knob? As long as it's not clipping what's the problem?

My guess is that mastering engineers can have a tough job now that there are so many "home" mixers submitting material, and their suggestions are based on experience over time. That is to say, this advice is probably how they can best serve their clients in the simplest terms.

I would guess that if they said "get as close to clipping as possible, but not over" then they would get a lot of mixes that had limiters on the master, or suffered from inter-sample peaks.

Here's why it's best to suggest a generous amount of headroom on mixes submitted for mastering. First of all, they don't know how much the mix engineer knows and how much experience they have. Remembering that a mix won't necessarily peak at exactly the same level each time you play it (due to random FX such as reverbs and any FX swept with a non-synced LFO), there could be a mix that peaks at -1 dBFS when the mixer listened to it and measured it, but clips upon export because the random elements aligned differently upon export than upon playback. While this may be a rare occurrence, non-the-less the mastering engineer has to speak to the "least common denominators" when stating the submission specs.

There's also the afore-mentioned inter-sample peaks, which not ever engineer checks for, and leaving that amount of headroom accounts for worst case scenarios in those situations.

In other words, asking for 3-6 dB headroom is most likely what they have found they HAVE to do to cover all situations so that they can do the best job possible without having to reject submissions etc.




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You pour water here. How can we talk so much and say nothing?

Again, the theme takes away from the topics comes Selig.
If you do not use the "loudness"
This term. Loudness unit.
Why are you wasting your time?

  I'll ask questions that you ignored

Crest factor is not "talking" about anything. But I find it a better judge of loudness than peak or VU/RMS levels alone. I would defer to mastering engineers when I need to meet a professional standard (which to date has NEVER happened).

I don't know that "we" need anything. I will repeat that I share what works for me, rather than telling anyone what they need, which seems to be where you are headed with this?



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Sine has always the same value of VU/RMS.

And 100 Hz will vary between 2,000 hertz at 20 decibels. But to have one laudness.
And this is not the limit. So you are very mistaken. Twenty decibels is a huge difference. Very large, to further talk about the RMS general.

It could not be better or for you and for anyone. You just say what everyone knows. I previously thought in the same way as you. Therefore, you are not special.

Do not even try to refute. Ladness made to measure noise.
And the Double bass with flute, will become for you a nightmare, and for all of your followers.

For you always meet other people. This is not the first time. And you move away from the topic.

[8cros]

Engineers - the people who created this technology. You understand? Engineers from different countries together.
This fact is just an unprecedented event, if you pay attention.

[normen]

Which is better, screaming or ozone?

Scream one sounds terrible to me. Just like distortion on a full mix usually does.. But if you like it then thats good

[8cros]

Which is better, screaming or ozone?

Scream one sounds terrible to me. Just like distortion on a full mix usually does.. But if you like it then thats good

I gave scream 4 for example. Try to abstract.

The iZotope got the terrible artifact that just annoys me. I can hear it.
And the scream sounded clean. Paradox, but check it out.

[normen]

I gave scream 4 for example. Try to abstract.

The iZotope got the terrible artifact that just annoys me. I can hear it.
And the scream sounded clean. Paradox, but check it out.

Well I did check it out and the Scream example sounds in no way "clean".

[8cros]

I gave scream 4 for example. Try to abstract.

The iZotope got the terrible artifact that just annoys me. I can hear it.
And the scream sounded clean. Paradox, but check it out.

Well I did check it out and the Scream example sounds in no way "clean".

The first moment we hear the clap.
It has a long reverb.

This clap as a straight line detector.


What is your word. Straight, continuous, or something else. The main thing that you have found a flaw in the izotope.

Unforgettable, I hope that you are careful and do not laugh here. After all, I do not know English. Why do I have to explain to you the words of nouns? I gave you the audio.

[normen]

I gave scream 4 for example. Try to abstract.

The iZotope got the terrible artifact that just annoys me. I can hear it.
And the scream sounded clean. Paradox, but check it out.

Well I did check it out and the Scream example sounds in no way "clean".

The first moment we hear the clap.
It has a long reverb.

This clap as a straight line detector.


What is your word. Straight, continuous, or something else. The main thing that you have found a flaw in the izotope.

Unforgettable, I hope that you are careful and do not laugh here. After all, I do not know English. Why do I have to explain to you the words of nouns? I gave you the audio.

One artifact in the ozone track doesn't make scream track sound better.

[8cros]

I gave scream 4 for example. Try to abstract.

The iZotope got the terrible artifact that just annoys me. I can hear it.
And the scream sounded clean. Paradox, but check it out.

Well I did check it out and the Scream example sounds in no way "clean".

The first moment we hear the clap.
It has a long reverb.

This clap as a straight line detector.


What is your word. Straight, continuous, or something else. The main thing that you have found a flaw in the izotope.

Unforgettable, I hope that you are careful and do not laugh here. After all, I do not know English. Why do I have to explain to you the words of nouns? I gave you the audio.

One artifact in the ozone track doesn't make scream track sound better.

You do not consider my nerves as the creator. I am so upset by this failure, which began to hear more and more inadequate.

These are the years of bad mixes, in one small volume failure. For me, this is worse.
I did not remove it just for the sake of example.

[normen]

You do not consider my nerves as the creator. I am so upset by this failure, which began to hear more and more inadequate.

These are the years of bad mixes, in one small volume failure. For me, this is worse.
I did not remove it just for the sake of example.

If I was your customer you would not sell the first mix to me, you'd sell the second because I think the first sounds terrible. You can't explain that away.

[8cros]

You do not consider my nerves as the creator. I am so upset by this failure, which began to hear more and more inadequate.

These are the years of bad mixes, in one small volume failure. For me, this is worse.
I did not remove it just for the sake of example.

If I was your customer you would not sell the first mix to me, you'd sell the second because I think the first sounds terrible. You can't explain that away.

But I'm not going to argue with a man not related to music. In fact, the second sounds terrible, and the first is like a birthday cake. It's just happiness.

The idea is that screaming can be replaced with modern maximizers that support ebu method.

[normen]

But I'm not going to argue with a man not related to music. In fact, the second sounds terrible, and the first is like a birthday cake. It's just happiness.

The idea is that screaming can be replaced with modern maximizers that support ebu method.

Very idealistic.. This way you won't make much money in this business ^^

Anyway, I'd say in a few years you will also hear the terrible distortion in the scream track and if by then you treated all your tracks this way you will be in the same situation - years of bad mixes. Just like I didn't hear how bad 128k MP3 really sounded back in my youth when I converted all my music that way - and then had to go back and re-encode it all at 256k..

What was it you wanted to achieve with either treatment anyway? How about if you don't like what the Ozone does you simply don't apply it - instead of butchering your track with distortion?

[selig]

You do not consider my nerves as the creator. I am so upset by this failure, which began to hear more and more inadequate.

These are the years of bad mixes, in one small volume failure. For me, this is worse.
I did not remove it just for the sake of example.

If I was your customer you would not sell the first mix to me, you'd sell the second because I think the first sounds terrible. You can't explain that away.

But I'm not going to argue with a man not related to music. In fact, the second sounds terrible, and the first is like a birthday cake. It's just happiness.

The idea is that screaming can be replaced with modern maximizers that support ebu method.

I'm going to hold you to your promise of not arguing with Normen. If you continue you will receive a warning.

[selig]

I gave scream 4 for example. Try to abstract.

The iZotope got the terrible artifact that just annoys me. I can hear it.
And the scream sounded clean. Paradox, but check it out.

Well I did check it out and the Scream example sounds in no way "clean".

Finally gave in and listened to these two examples, against my better judgement…

Either I need to get my hearing checked, or I'm crazy. Scream demolished the top octave and seriously distorted the instruments (as expected, right?). Hardly noticed the sparkly bells in the Scream version. Scream made the Ozone version sound like the original hi-fi version and Scream like a bad cassette tape copy of a copy. And I don't mean that in a "cool vintage tape" way, it just sounds inferior in every way to me.

Don't even know how this is a fair comparison - why would anyone destroy such a cool track with Scream in this way?

Totally missing the point of this comparison.

[normen]

I'm going to hold you to your promise of not arguing with Normen. If you continue you will receive a warning.

Well I do hope that he didn't mean me but some arbitrary person (the "customer" in my answer).

Otherwise, concerning the "scream" track, I completely agree, its just destroyed. The small pumping artifacts of the Ozone seem completely negligible in comparison, I don't get the purpose either. So either we both have bad ears or its just not our taste to have mixes distort like crazy Kind of funny in the context of a thread about loudness wars

[8cros]

I'm going to hold you to your promise of not arguing with Normen. If you continue you will receive a warning.

Well I do hope that he didn't mean me but some arbitrary person (the "customer" in my answer).

Otherwise, concerning the "scream" track, I completely agree, its just destroyed. The small pumping artifacts of the Ozone seem completely negligible in comparison, I don't get the purpose either. So either we both have bad ears or its just not our taste to have mixes distort like crazy Kind of funny in the context of a thread about loudness wars

I used scream for mastering the first time.
I see that you are against it. I just do not want to take the isotope in the two examples.
This is the whole reason for the tape compressor.
There's depth of only 1 decibel.

[8cros]

Scream tape - a compressor + saturation.
Maximizer - limit + soft clipping.

It is is largely similar devices. I funny to see ordinary things such resistance.
I would take the M-Class maximizer, but it is very inconvenient to use. No threshold and output level.

[esselfortium]

What does any of this conversation have to do with using a loudness meter?

[8cros]

What does any of this conversation have to do with using a loudness meter?

Yes, the gate (loudness) method.

[normen]

What does any of this conversation have to do with using a loudness meter?

Well if I get it right he was trying to maximize the loudness of his track with Ozone, noticed some artifact and then proceeded to try and achieve the same thing (maximizing loudness) with his scream technique (for which I still don't exactly know how it works).

At least the long listing of loudness-relevant measuring data he posted alongside the examples make me think that, its hard to understand anything he's saying (or rather typing).

Scream tape - a compressor + saturation.
Maximizer - limit + soft clipping.

It is is largely similar devices. I funny to see ordinary things such resistance.
I would take the M-Class maximizer, but it is very inconvenient to use. No threshold and output level.

I find it very funny that you deem the results in any way similar at all. You DO hear that the scream treated track has LOADS of distortion that the Ozone track doesn't have, do you? You also hear that the high end of the scream track is taking a massive dip (on top of the added distortion)?

[8cros]

What does any of this conversation have to do with using a loudness meter?

Well if I get it right he was trying to maximize the loudness of his track with Ozone, noticed some artifact and then proceeded to try and achieve the same thing (maximizing loudness) with his scream technique (for which I still don't exactly know how it works).

At least the long listing of loudness-relevant measuring data he posted alongside the examples make me think that, its hard to understand anything he's saying (or rather typing).

Scream tape - a compressor + saturation.
Maximizer - limit + soft clipping.

It is is largely similar devices. I funny to see ordinary things such resistance.
I would take the M-Class maximizer, but it is very inconvenient to use. No threshold and output level.

I find it very funny that you deem the results in any way similar at all. You DO hear that the scream treated track has LOADS of distortion that the Ozone track doesn't have, do you? You also hear that the high end of the scream track is taking a massive dip (on top of the added distortion)?

Of course I hear it, but that details are not relating to the dynamic range and laudness. It is the color and character. Loads and distortion.
You focuses on completely unnecessary things.


You are wrong.

I'll explain.

I maximize mixer channels in Example 1.

I maximized only master in Example 2.

[selig]

I'm going to hold you to your promise of not arguing with Normen. If you continue you will receive a warning.

Well I do hope that he didn't mean me but some arbitrary person (the "customer" in my answer).

Otherwise, concerning the "scream" track, I completely agree, its just destroyed. The small pumping artifacts of the Ozone seem completely negligible in comparison, I don't get the purpose either. So either we both have bad ears or its just not our taste to have mixes distort like crazy Kind of funny in the context of a thread about loudness wars

I'm sure you'd agree it's ALL meaningless without knowing what the original sounded like. Again, great track, but Scream ruins it for me.


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[8cros]

gating method - the number LU from zero to stop.
This limit is g8 or g10.