Reason updates (11.3.7 / 11.3.8) and Reason+

[Aosta]

The live stream showed nothing that we didn't already know. 3 men with a title starting with C asked two people to deal with it and the rest of us to suck it! We know what this business needs New cash.

I can think of a word starting with C for them.
We all need to understand that this isn't about identifying new cash flow streams but it is about 'democratizing music' as that CEO said...I mean even a person from Africa signed up to the FREE trial so that means even poor people can use the software now

[TrueStory]

The livestream chat shows what people really want no matter how they tried to ignore it. VST 3 support and internal midi. A new piano roll with scale support would be nice too. Reason has got to be the only DAW where you can't even load up a basic scale on the piano roll. Reason Studios needs to focus more on core upgrades instead of new synths and thousands of sounds not everyone will use.

I take it Reason + users will now have first dibs on all new players and effect modules while Suite owners will have to pay. What happens when you cancel your subscription? You revert back to whatever you had before the subscription and lose all the new sounds and upgrades you've installed?

The live stream showed nothing that we didn't already know. 3 men with a title starting with C asked two people to deal with it and the rest of us to suck it! We know what this business needs New cash.

Despite this huge disappointment, Reason Studios still has a shot if they come correct with 12 and finally give us what we asked for which should have been implemented years ago. Otherwise Groove 3 Studio One / Ableton tutorials will be lit with new viewers myself included.

[earwig83]

People now have options. It's up to the user to decide the best path, but we simply have more options. So I don't get your argument.

That's because apparently we are "Reason apologists" or "corporate protectionists".

I can totally appreciate the sarcasm here but as the person who you are likely quoting, I think those labels/terms are apt and not necessarily incendiary. There is truth to the ideas I presented in support of those labels. I've always wanted to engage with this community more but didn't due to the echo chamber effect I saw here and on PUF. So much criticism is met with shut downs and deflection.

The whole culture of dismissing valid complaints of others because you might be fine with the choices being disputed is somewhat dicey. Reason is famous for tons of threads and chats overwhelmed with people on both sides but almost always a negative majority. We see it happening in the gaming world A LOT and lots of other markets too. Adobe being one of the famous abusive relationships consumers have with a corporate entity. Companies listen far too selectively. The ones who do listen always eventually falter under their own success and then go against their own ethos to get that sweet cash.

Unhappiness is and always will be louder. The difference is those expressing discontent have a duty to do so, for their own interests and to secure a future of continuing to enjoy what they love. Reason. It is clearly being threatened by new business models from outsider VC mindsets that don't guarantee RS long term success. Investors are not always right. Let's hope they are in this case, of course.

that said, the whole "too bad you can leave attitude" that I oft see on threads here or elsewhere are concerning. People defending or justifying bad company decisions is largely the problem I see with getting them to listen to us. They see your supportive comments and then feel vindicated in their choices. Complimented of course by their fat bottom line!

See, saying "it's always been this way" or "so just don't buy it then" or "there's the door" is kind of one and the same to the responses made to legitimate political complaints and strife in society. The classic American "then leave" is metaphorically the same logic. We vote with our dollars but just like voting in the US, that is clearly not enough to secure the needs of the people/user base.

It's the sanitization of thought and opinion that comes with online moderation and group think that I feel lead us as a society into this lousy state the world is now in. Heck I'm even afraid to impart my "entitled opinion" directly to any moderator. Wouldn't want to get banned. I don't think I've crossed that line but with everything going on in this world, it is clearly an increasingly slippery slope.

Sadly, it is all connected. Our collective musical hobbies now vastly depend on maintaining large capitalist structures and systems, it all becomes quite dreary, if you ask me. So I don't necessarily disagree with yours and others more logical, optimistic outlook. That said those who are angry are passionate for a reason. there is a lot of love behind our angry voices but it does not and hasn't felt reciprocated for a little while now because of the changes going on in the software space.

Point is, as long as the discourse can continue, your eye rolls towards my hyperbole are 100% acceptable just as our claims that people should stop defending unjust moves by companies.

It's been a fun day of moaning and I think I got it out of my system and now all we can do is wait and see how things play out!

[Auryn]

it's a pic of Tony Blair with a guitar...?

Making the point that these people don't operate in the same world as we do.

LOL I thought the Reason CEO guy was just an uncanny lookalike

but point taken

[Popey]

I think this is a good idea for new users but think there is a lot of marketing required to make it work.

Let's face it if you were interested in a daw and starting out with no experience you most likely head to google for info. On google you would likely find reason in the bottom half of most top 10 lists. Then maybe look at price? £20 seems reasonable but look studio ones sphere is only £15. Now in my opinion reason has better instruments than S1 but if said beginner goes on you tube they are more likely to find ableton, logic, cubase S1 etc videos before they do reason so may be oblivious to this fact.

This leads me to my next point which is respecting loyal users. The poll on this page and comments on the you tube videos reason studios have posted are largely negative in my opinion and a bit of a pr disaster however do show a loyal following who care about the product. Considering reason staff have been on this thread I would ask them to consider liaising with loyal followers to look at tweaks to the subscription model to make this palatable (eg. One years subscription 12x £20 payments Grant's you the current version full perpetual licence and perhaps one re of your choice, 18 months payments eg another further 6 months subscription enables you one more free re etc). That way if people commit to a year they are safe in the knowledge they own something.

I am kinda worried how things are heading and what impact it may have on this reason talk forum which is a really decent community. Seems decisions at the moment are designed to grab new users which is fair enough as businesses need new revenue to survive but not at the cost alienating loyal customers who already have a connection with their brand.

[EnochLight]

I can see it now.

April 7th, 2050: Beloved grandfather regrets quitting reason on his deathbed after the feared discontinuation of full Reason licenses never happened.

His son, Gary says "[his father] was never the same after his best mate came round to show off all the new features he was using on his copy of Reason.

"You could see he was torn between his want to join in on the fun with all the other Reason heads, but also wanting to stand by his baseless speculation of full license discontinuation that, after 10 years of Reason+ having had no impact on it, was starting to look really sad and hopeless."

Expert psychologists say cases of Premature Speculation are on the rise, and suggest refraining from too much speculative mental masturbation as that greatly increases your chances of catching the disease.

[Faastwalker]

The morning after ............ Reason+ !! I've got a hangover!!

Well, I hope for Reason sake it all works out. But, looking at the community response, the general consensus appears to be that this is by far and away the most unpopular thing that has happened to Reason in its entire history, which isn't a very good starting point for this thing. Sure, we can bypass it ........ for now. Who knows going forward? I guess it depends how popular it actually turns out to be. A thought which is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth. The future does not look bright for us

[earwig83]

The outrage is the monthly cost during this tough times

“You’ll own nothing. And you’ll be happy.”
“Whatever you want you’ll rent.” - WEF

But on a serious note. Yes its true times are tough for some people and if you are one of those people you will simply have to go without certain things until you can afford them. Example certain gear I would love to dump money on but I can't afford them so I have to prioritize. Its just life.

Exactly. I think people forget that there are meta reasons we all get upset about these things. Food is a rip off, Reason is a rip off, it is all getting to be a bit much. And now they want to really pull the rugs from under us and lock us all into "their" visions. It's all connected, it's gross and it sucks. Innovation will die as the world continues to streamline. Just go on amazon and see all the garbage products on there. A by product of this brave new world they suckered us into.

I knew when I bought my first legit Reason license I would end up at this cross roads. I actually thought it would have come sooner. So that's a plus!

[Baylo]

Pheew! What an evening. This summer, I ugraded my abandoned Reason 6.5 to 11 Suite because I had such a modular fever. Spent about 1300 Euro in all and loved it more than ever. Being unaware of the latest development, I went to the Reason Studios page this noon and completely panicked, when it seemed like I could not get to the normal shopping pages without subscribing (I did not look to the bottom of the page then). Having immediate nightmares of losing all my licences because I just upgraded from within Reason, I got my mac off the net asap, checked that my R11 worked as is, and the panick ceased enough for me to figure out what is was all about. I read and few KVR posts and then a good part of this thread and was enraged at first: RS seemed to have plans to take my Dawling and all its REs off-spring as hostages and extort me for the rest of my life. RAGNAROK!!!
Well...after checking some links from the more calm posters, I found my shop again, and the explanations given by RS as to what this is about; just an additional option. I can still buy an R12 upgrade without monthly fees. What a relief, especially because I cannot really see why I would want to upgrade, anyway. And the point: I am both relieved and exhausted now. I need a spliff, some chilly ambient and sleep. But thanks for the ride, guys and gals. If I go up in red flames, you get me even higher, and when I fall to the ground again, you see that I land as softly as a feather. At the end of this day, it seems like the world will be here tomorrow again.
Hail Reason, the only music software that ever got me.

Best post of the day. Welcome to ReasonTalk. Some people here need to calm down.

That said, if RS did one thing wrong this week, it was to tailor all their communications about this evolution to *new* or *potential* users, and then deliver that message pretty much exclusively to *existing* users who are already bought in. Some lessons to be learnt, I think. They really should have hammered home on the livestream that perpetual licenses are not going anywhere, and nothing changes for those who don't want it to change.

[earwig83]

"40% of the user base is now using Reason as a plugin in other DAWs"
I mean, they gave away Reason Lite for free on pluginboutique. I wouldn't trust that number one bit.
Edit for clarity: when you artificially blow up the number of registered accounts with a move like that, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. All it says potentially is that a lot of users installed a freebie...

Exactly but that's how evil VC guys work. They juke the stats to create their paper based lies. And then if it doesn't work they shrug, leave and let it burn. parasites.

[avasopht]

There's only one way to settle speculation.

We need a wager ...

If you're certain full purchases will be discontinued sometime soon, then if they haven't by 2030, you have to purchase every upgrade on day 1.

If you're confident that won't be discontinued, then if they have by 2030, then you have to subscribe for life.

There you go, all speculation is resolved by way of a high stakes wager!

[earwig83]

In two minds about this. As a Suite owner I'm happy with what I've got and will stick with the non-sub route.

What I do worry about is RS staying in business for as long as I am making music. Reason's what I started with and I never got used to anything else. If RS goes out of business, bang goes updates to keep it working on new OSes and hardware and bang goes access to all the REs, and therefore bang goes all the music I've been chipping away at for the past 15 - 20 years (I never finish anything). This has worried me since they started the RE ecosystem. Maybe REs were a genie that should never have been let out of the bottle.

I do feel this subscription should be some kind of rent-to-own though, on ethical grounds.

Stop being reasonable, you're killing me!!! lol

[earwig83]

Exactly, I've been watching (and using) Native Instruments just as closely and I knew they were all going to go in this direction. Got to get those vapid influencer TikTok producer types interested after all! They were all born into the ephemeral digital hell-world we now live in where no one owns anything anymore and no one can be critical without a hundred unpaid minions defending these corporate beasts. Whole industry is selling our. All more interested in return instead of why they made the stuff in the first place. To make music. Now it's about auditioning endless pre-made songs and making two tweaks and dropping garbage lyrics and vocals on top. Native was always worst than Props too. Soullessness all around. I just hope RS backpedals a bit. They won't.

I should state that I like to talk in extreme hyperbole sometimes! So emotional today!

Nah man, I feel ya. Corporate and marketing people are the worst. I'm nostalgic for those old Bill Hicks standups where he'd just rail on them mercilessly. "by the way, if you're in marketing or advertising, kill yourself"

EDIT: because somebody will probably say 'but you sell refills!'. I sure do, but I don't really 'market' them. I write purposely absurd blurbs for them because I feel uncomfortable writing 'tailored' texts.

But that's the thing, by the time you jump on board, they will pivot again. It's a bit much.

[earwig83]

*cough* trickle down economics.

Problem is, the market is largely manuafacured consent now... like they did with the update. they create big shows, hypes, they tell us what we need. just like in the stream, just positive "this is great!", when they know, as humans, they know, its all bs. so they create the market by projecting the idea onto social media etc with the help of mediocre producers willing to promote them for free with shares etc on socials. "always up to date - lots of fresh content"... its cancerous

*edit - that response is to selig, and not the cought trickle down comment...as i assume thats saying "yea, we know where the lie of trickle down got us!

100% You and I should start a band because you are preaching to the choir at this point! It's just you and me and two other hot heads. This is happening with everything in the world. Cyberpunk was an insane FU to people, all the new GPUs and CPUs, it's all bullshit.

[DecafDreams]

I really don't get the point with the new users. If Reason is not attracting enough new users, how should a subscription model change that? It's not that killer feature everyone has been waiting for to jump on the Reason train.

If a software doesn't attract new users, then it neither will just because it now has a subscription model.

Btw no Redrum bugfix in 11.3.8 and so far not even an answer to the bug report.
Man, they have completely lost their focus.

I just tried to edit a ReDrum sample then afterwards delete it from the Song Samples on the macOS version of Reason 11.3.8 and it causes the app to hard crash without even offering the option to continue working and save!

Surely fixing show stopping bugs like this should be a priority over launching a subscription service? Can't remember stuff like this happening back in the good old Propellerhead days...

[WOO]

You're welcome to throw out everything you've bought up to this point. But you're also completely welcome to keep using it. That's the point. For people who own Reason, and prefer to not rent, literally nothing has changed. There is just another way to get access to Reason and all Reason Studios' REs now. I don't know what the adoption rate will be, based on the response from the users here, probably not many of us. But maybe it's not for us? People who already own Reason and all the REs we want. And that's fine, Reason Studio's didn't change anything about the way we continue.

I understand why people temper themselves with this logic but we know from trends and historical precedents set by Adobe and other software giants, that eventually they (reasonstudios) will force us at a cross road at R13 or R14. Or make the Hi Res update part of the subscription which I think would melt the world down faster than corona! lol

I give the company 2 years and it'll be gone. Learn another daw now! Time for the life vest?

[earwig83]

i guess hes not only a mobile phone ceo guy and he makes art too... cool guy

VC CEO will crash this company then tiptoe off into another CEO role like nothing happened. It's what they do. They never pay for their mistakes but operate in a totally different world in which getting it totally wrong has zero consequences for them personally.

Limited Liability Liars

[DecafDreams]

Nah man, I feel ya. Corporate and marketing people are the worst. I'm nostalgic for those old Bill Hicks standups where he'd just rail on them mercilessly. "by the way, if you're in marketing or advertising, kill yourself"

"Quit putting a goddamned dollar sign on every fcking thing on this planet!"

[earwig83]

I can see it now.

April 7th, 2050: Beloved grandfather regrets quitting reason on his deathbed after the feared discontinuation of full Reason licenses never happened.

His son, Gary says "[his father] was never the same after his best mate came round to show off all the new features he was using on his copy of Reason.

"You could see he was torn between his want to join in on the fun with all the other Reason heads, but also wanting to stand by his baseless speculation of full license discontinuation that, after 10 years of Reason+ having had no impact on it, was starting to look really sad and hopeless."

Expert psychologists say cases of Premature Speculation are on the rise, and suggest refraining from too much speculative mental masturbation as that greatly increases your chances of catching the disease.

Gave me a chuckle. I'll still clutch to my convictions just like the guy you mention. LOLOLO

[avasopht]

I understand why people temper themselves with this logic but we know from trends and historical precedents set by Adobe and other software giants, that eventually they (reasonstudios) will force us at a cross road at R13 or R14. Or make the Hi Res update part of the subscription which I think would melt the world down faster than corona! lol

I give the company 2 years and it'll be gone. Learn another daw now! Time for the life vest?

See my wager above

[earwig83]

Pheew! What an evening. This summer, I upgraded my abandoned Reason 6.5 to 11 Suite because I had such a modular fever. Spent about 1300 Euro in all and loved it more than ever. Being unaware of the latest development, I went to the Reason Studios page this noon and completely panicked, when it seemed like I could not get to the normal shopping pages without subscribing (I did not look to the bottom of the page then). Having immediate nightmares of losing all my licences because I just upgraded from within Reason, I got my mac off the net asap, checked that my R11 worked as is, and the panick ceased enough for me to figure out what is was all about. I read and few KVR posts and then a good part of this thread and was enraged at first: RS seemed to have plans to take my Dawling and all its REs off-spring as hostages and extort me for the rest of my life. RAGNAROK!!!
Well...after checking some links from the more calm posters, I found my shop again, and the explanations given by RS as to what this is about; just an additional option. I can still buy an R12 upgrade without monthly fees. What a relief, especially because I cannot really see why I would want to upgrade, anyway. And the point: I am both relieved and exhausted now. I need a spliff, some chilly ambient and sleep. But thanks for the ride, guys and gals. If I go up in red flames, you get me even higher, and when I fall to the ground again, you see that I land as softly as a feather. At the end of this day, it seems like the world will be here tomorrow again.
Hail Reason, the only music software that ever got me.

Made my day.

[Aosta]

Sure, we can bypass it ........ for now. Who knows going forward? I guess it depends how popular it actually turns out to be. A thought which is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth. The future does not look bright for us

This is exactly mine and other's worry, I really don't care one way or another for the actual ins and outs of the subscription model but what I care about is the knock on effect to the entire 'ecosystem'.
People are saying 'simply don't use it and nothing changes' but that simply won't be the case. You cannot introduce something like this and believe it will exist in a bubble not influencing other decisions within the company and withing the user base.
To believe that is delusion.

[EdwardKiy]

Considering reason staff have been on this thread I would ask them to consider liaising with loyal followers to look at tweaks to the subscription model to make this palatable (eg. One years subscription 12x £20 payments Grant's you the current version full perpetual licence and perhaps one re of your choice, 18 months payments eg another further 6 months subscription enables you one more free re etc). That way if people commit to a year they are safe in the knowledge they own something.

Someone mentioned in another thread that track folders were first requested in 2008. But instead of track folders (and almost equally as good) just 13 years later Reason gets a subscription option. And now you are suggesting they should take less money for it. You don't see the absurdity of this communication? THAT'S why I think everyone's so pissed with them in the first place.

The "what's the fuss, it's just a bonus option" gang seems to have missed the point completely. After years spent on the RRP detour with the DAW being already years behind competition at that point, RS decide to just ignore their community and waste yet another year on NOTHING for the core users.

I might be totally wrong of course, and maybe they really can't update the sequencer. Maybe they really CAN'T update the DAW because it was coded in archaic Swedish runes and there simply isn't a rune for "full screen mode".

[earwig83]

I think this is a good idea for new users but think there is a lot of marketing required to make it work.

Let's face it if you were interested in a daw and starting out with no experience you most likely head to google for info. On google you would likely find reason in the bottom half of most top 10 lists. Then maybe look at price? £20 seems reasonable but look studio ones sphere is only £15. Now in my opinion reason has better instruments than S1 but if said beginner goes on you tube they are more likely to find ableton, logic, cubase S1 etc videos before they do reason so may be oblivious to this fact.

This leads me to my next point which is respecting loyal users. The poll on this page and comments on the you tube videos reason studios have posted are largely negative in my opinion and a bit of a pr disaster however do show a loyal following who care about the product. Considering reason staff have been on this thread I would ask them to consider liaising with loyal followers to look at tweaks to the subscription model to make this palatable (eg. One years subscription 12x £20 payments Grant's you the current version full perpetual licence and perhaps one re of your choice, 18 months payments eg another further 6 months subscription enables you one more free re etc). That way if people commit to a year they are safe in the knowledge they own something.

I am kinda worried how things are heading and what impact it may have on this reason talk forum which is a really decent community. Seems decisions at the moment are designed to grab new users which is fair enough as businesses need new revenue to survive but not at the cost alienating loyal customers who already have a connection with their brand.

STOP WITH THE LOGIC!

[miscend]

i guess hes not only a mobile phone ceo guy and he makes art too... cool guy

VC CEO will crash this company then tiptoe off into another CEO role like nothing happened. It's what they do. They never pay for their mistakes but operate in a totally different world in which getting it totally wrong has zero consequences for them personally.

Analogy falls flat. How do you compare the most powerful and successful PM since Thatcher to a failed CEO?

Anyway businesses exist solely to make profit. If they are making money they are doing well. If you dont like that model there is freeware and there is open source.