Using a Loudness Meter

[8cros]

Laudness - this is not the Broadcasting. This is primarily perception.
That is, the audio at all.

[selig]

Laudness - this is not the Broadcasting. This is primarily perception.
That is, the audio at all.

I agree with the video you posted - do you NOT agree with it?
I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.
[EDIT-According to the video, loudness needs to be measured in order to create a standard. Why would you otherwise need to measure loudness?]

[8cros]

Laudness - this is not the Broadcasting. This is primarily perception.
That is, the audio at all.

I agree with the video you posted - do you NOT agree with it?
I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.
[EDIT-According to the video, loudness needs to be measured in order to create a standard. Why would you otherwise need to measure loudness?]

You agree that the crest factor is not talking about the perceived loudness? And we need meters flower and red rock exclusively?

[selig]

Laudness - this is not the Broadcasting. This is primarily perception.
That is, the audio at all.

I agree with the video you posted - do you NOT agree with it?
I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.
[EDIT-According to the video, loudness needs to be measured in order to create a standard. Why would you otherwise need to measure loudness?]

You agree that the crest factor is not talking about the perceived loudness? And we need meters flower and red rock exclusively?

Crest factor is not "talking" about anything. But I find it a better judge of loudness than peak or VU/RMS levels alone. I would defer to mastering engineers when I need to meet a professional standard (which to date has NEVER happened).

I don't know that "we" need anything. I will repeat that I share what works for me, rather than telling anyone what they need, which seems to be where you are headed with this?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[8cros]

We have a small community. Each user has the right to know what he needed about such complicated things like these "lkfs and lufs" meters. There is not supposed to be three pages with your self-promotion, you create an obstacle to the development of these things.
We, the users loudnes important to update each and every cent of our developers. And not abstract talk of Broadcasting and decibels.
You understand?
Here advertising loudness.

[selig]

We have a small community. Each user has the right to know what he needed about such complicated things like these "lkfs and lyufs" meters. There is not supposed to be three pages with your self-promotion, you create an obstacle to the development of these things.
We, the users loudnes important to update each and every cent of our developers. And not abstract talk of Broadcasting and decibels.
You understand?
Here advertising loudness.

Come one dude, accusations of self-promotion? Three pages?

No, I do not understand your hyperbole. The "abstract talk of broadcasting" was the video you posted. How many here produce final product for broadcast? How many folks here mix dialog, SFX, and music for TV or film? Using Reason, no less? That's what the video you posted discusses - did you even watch it yourself? Why does a bedroom producer (such as I am) need to know about LUFS etc? I produce lots of music, and I never get asked to mix to a standard broadcast level - do you?

To be totally honest, I'm mostly lost with your posts, and can only guess as to your intention in many cases. I know therefore that it's not fair to criticize anything you say. Which is to say, as I cannot follow your point, I cannot reply with any clarity. I'm doing my best to follow your posts, but I don't think google translate is doing you any favors. It may be best for me to avoid replying to your posts in the future, if only because I don't think I'm able to be sure I know what you're saying in the first place! I've tried, lord knows I've tried, but if this thread (and a few before it) is any indication, I feel it best for me to move on here.

[8cros]

LUFS revolution has stalled.

[8cros]

79 parties supporting EBU R 128 in products/tools.*

AccepT, Adobe, Agama, Appear TV, Apple, Abdication, Auphonic, Axon, Calrec Audio Ltd, Christian Epe (Silvio), Cobalt Digital, CRC, Cube-Tec International, Digimetrics, DHD, DK-Technologies, Dolby, Dorrough, DSP Mobile, DVBControl, Emotion Systems, Emsytech, Evertz, Eyesight, Flux, DAVID Systems, Grimm Audio, Hamlet, Harris, Hindenburg Systems, illustrate, Interra Systems, ITNM Systems, Ittiam Systems, Isotope, JocLoudness, Jünger Audio-Studiotechnik, Kokkini Zita, Lawo, Libebur128, Linear Acoustic, Little Endian, Loudness Validator, Magix, Marquise Technologies, MeldaProduction, MeterPlugs, Merging Technologies, Minnetonka Audio, Miranda , NUGEN Audio, Omnitel, Orban, Pinguin, PreSonus, Qualis Audio , R128GAIN, RME, RTW, Sonorous, Sony, Sound Audio Processing, Stagetec, Sternberg, TAG video systems, TC Electronic, Tecom Group, Tektronix, ToneBoosters, Toyo Corporation, Trinnov , Venera Technologies, Vidcheck, Volicon, VSonics, YLE, Waves, Videotoolshed, Kohler, zplane

[8cros]

For example, an interesting meter.

[Galaxy]

We have a small community. Each user has the right to know what he needed about such complicated things like these "lkfs and lyufs" meters. There is not supposed to be three pages with your self-promotion, you create an obstacle to the development of these things.
We, the users loudnes important to update each and every cent of our developers. And not abstract talk of Broadcasting and decibels.
You understand?
Here advertising loudness.

Come one dude, accusations of self-promotion? Three pages?

No, I do not understand your hyperbole. The "abstract talk of broadcasting" was the video you posted. How many here produce final product for broadcast? How many folks here mix dialog, SFX, and music for TV or film? Using Reason, no less? That's what the video you posted discusses - did you even watch it yourself? Why does a bedroom producer (such as I am) need to know about LUFS etc? I produce lots of music, and I never get asked to mix to a standard broadcast level - do you?

To be totally honest, I'm mostly lost with your posts, and can only guess as to your intention in many cases. I know therefore that it's not fair to criticize anything you say. Which is to say, as I cannot follow your point, I cannot reply with any clarity. I'm doing my best to follow your posts, but I don't think google translate is doing you any favors. It may be best for me to avoid replying to your posts in the future, if only because I don't think I'm able to be sure I know what you're saying in the first place! I've tried, lord knows I've tried, but if this thread (and a few before it) is any indication, I feel it best for me to move on here.

8cros is saying, dismissing a standard like R128 because "we're bedroom producers" is like saying, that because we don't work or produce for broadcast, it shouldn't concern us. Not a healthy perspective really. Some might want to understand how this works and might apply in practice. Maybe you'll write music to hopefully wind up on tv or in film or radio. Also isn't YouTube/SoundCloud a form of broadcast? They have their own compression, but there are still loud tracks and quite tracks? They don't level all playback audio to -23.

If peak is absolute, and RMS (root mean square) a 350 millisecond window, crest factor is a loudness measurement that considers the difference between peak and RMS. LUFS and LUKS are crest factor units that consider different amount of time for quiet passages? Short term, momentary, etc? This is were it gets confusing. If a track has a LUFS measurement of -6, would it just be turned down -17 for broadcast, making it sound quieter and undynamic? If we all aimed for LUFS of -23 we would all be producing music that is dynamically on par to some jazz and classical, yes? What would EDM sound like if it was -23? What would metal sound like? Selig, what do you aim for in terms of LUFS levels for your music? Shouldn't we all aim for a common goal or range? Ian Sheppard use to say aim for 8, now 6 is acceptable? What next 4 than 2 than 0?

Yup confusing stuff. Maybe loudness doesn't matter because the future will consider loudness normalization? Question is how do you shoot for -23 effectively so you don't wind up with a whimpy overcompressed song on tv or radio?

[8cros]

The point is not 0 Lu. It is your own business.
But within the meaning of the g8 gate method.
And a lot of people are doing just noise and not music.

[selig]

We have a small community. Each user has the right to know what he needed about such complicated things like these "lkfs and lyufs" meters. There is not supposed to be three pages with your self-promotion, you create an obstacle to the development of these things.
We, the users loudnes important to update each and every cent of our developers. And not abstract talk of Broadcasting and decibels.
You understand?
Here advertising loudness.

Come one dude, accusations of self-promotion? Three pages?

No, I do not understand your hyperbole. The "abstract talk of broadcasting" was the video you posted. How many here produce final product for broadcast? How many folks here mix dialog, SFX, and music for TV or film? Using Reason, no less? That's what the video you posted discusses - did you even watch it yourself? Why does a bedroom producer (such as I am) need to know about LUFS etc? I produce lots of music, and I never get asked to mix to a standard broadcast level - do you?

To be totally honest, I'm mostly lost with your posts, and can only guess as to your intention in many cases. I know therefore that it's not fair to criticize anything you say. Which is to say, as I cannot follow your point, I cannot reply with any clarity. I'm doing my best to follow your posts, but I don't think google translate is doing you any favors. It may be best for me to avoid replying to your posts in the future, if only because I don't think I'm able to be sure I know what you're saying in the first place! I've tried, lord knows I've tried, but if this thread (and a few before it) is any indication, I feel it best for me to move on here.

8cros is saying, dismissing a standard like R128 because "we're bedroom producers" is like saying, that because we don't work or produce for broadcast, it shouldn't concern us. Not a healthy perspective really. Some might want to understand how this works and might apply in practice. Maybe you'll write music to hopefully wind up on tv or in film or radio. Also isn't YouTube/SoundCloud a form of broadcast? They have their own compression, but there are still loud tracks and quite tracks? They don't level all playback audio to -23.

If peak is absolute, and RMS (root mean square) a 350 millisecond window, crest factor is a loudness measurement that considers the difference between peak and RMS. LUFS and LUKS are crest factor units that consider different amount of time for quiet passages? Short term, momentary, etc? This is were it gets confusing. If a track has a LUFS measurement of -6, would it just be turned down -17 for broadcast, making it sound quieter and undynamic? If we all aimed for LUFS of -23 we would all be producing music that is dynamically on par to some jazz and classical, yes? What would EDM sound like if it was -23? What would metal sound like? Selig, what do you aim for in terms of LUFS levels for your music? Shouldn't we all aim for a common goal or range? Ian Sheppard use to say aim for 8, now 6 is acceptable? What next 4 than 2 than 0?

Yup confusing stuff. Maybe loudness doesn't matter because the future will consider loudness normalization? Question is how do you shoot for -23 effectively so you don't wind up with a whimpy overcompressed song on tv or radio?

I'm not dismissing anything. Come on folks, please respond to what I've actually said…jeez.

I'm saying it doesn't concern ME - why are you not hearing this even though I've said it repeatedly?

I DO write music that appears in TV and film, and the film mixers are the ones who make those decisions not me! I don't think you understand how that business works - when someone uses a Beatles song in a film, does it matter it wasn't mixed at -23 LUFS?

I don't measure LUFS, so I don't "aim" for anything, and I DEFINITELY do not "over compress" anything! I make music that is on par (loudness wise) with the references I'm using when I mix (IF I'm even using a reference). My ears are fine at telling me if my mix is louder or softer than the ref mix, just like I'm sure everyone here knows when a commercial comes on that's louder than the program before it (and reaches for the remote control to adjust it to match). That's all I'm doing.

And just so it's clear, I absolutely believe an industry standard (broadcast in this case) IS NECESSARY, which I've acknowledged countless times - but that's not controversial I guess, so you guys have to pretend I've said things I've never said, which causes unnecessary confusion.

It's getting frustrating correcting you guys, I just wish you'd read what I wrote and let's talk about THAT.

[8cros]

I work with headphones.
And we forget about the new feature developed by TC Electronics.
It LRA.
Completely new data about the sound.

[MitchClark89]

to everyone i think it is my fault why we went off the topic because i was asking about how to use/read the volume meters in SSL for mixdown (i did not know how they measureed). fwiw selig has helped me significantly to understand how to read the meters and given me his view on suggested peak level which i am experiment with now but sometimes hard with kids who always seem to steal away my music time!

[Galaxy]

We have a small community. Each user has the right to know what he needed about such complicated things like these "lkfs and lyufs" meters. There is not supposed to be three pages with your self-promotion, you create an obstacle to the development of these things.
We, the users loudnes important to update each and every cent of our developers. And not abstract talk of Broadcasting and decibels.
You understand?
Here advertising loudness.

Come one dude, accusations of self-promotion? Three pages?

No, I do not understand your hyperbole. The "abstract talk of broadcasting" was the video you posted. How many here produce final product for broadcast? How many folks here mix dialog, SFX, and music for TV or film? Using Reason, no less? That's what the video you posted discusses - did you even watch it yourself? Why does a bedroom producer (such as I am) need to know about LUFS etc? I produce lots of music, and I never get asked to mix to a standard broadcast level - do you?

To be totally honest, I'm mostly lost with your posts, and can only guess as to your intention in many cases. I know therefore that it's not fair to criticize anything you say. Which is to say, as I cannot follow your point, I cannot reply with any clarity. I'm doing my best to follow your posts, but I don't think google translate is doing you any favors. It may be best for me to avoid replying to your posts in the future, if only because I don't think I'm able to be sure I know what you're saying in the first place! I've tried, lord knows I've tried, but if this thread (and a few before it) is any indication, I feel it best for me to move on here.

8cros is saying, dismissing a standard like R128 because "we're bedroom producers" is like saying, that because we don't work or produce for broadcast, it shouldn't concern us. Not a healthy perspective really. Some might want to understand how this works and might apply in practice. Maybe you'll write music to hopefully wind up on tv or in film or radio. Also isn't YouTube/SoundCloud a form of broadcast? They have their own compression, but there are still loud tracks and quite tracks? They don't level all playback audio to -23.

If peak is absolute, and RMS (root mean square) a 350 millisecond window, crest factor is a loudness measurement that considers the difference between peak and RMS. LUFS and LUKS are crest factor units that consider different amount of time for quiet passages? Short term, momentary, etc? This is were it gets confusing. If a track has a LUFS measurement of -6, would it just be turned down -17 for broadcast, making it sound quieter and undynamic? If we all aimed for LUFS of -23 we would all be producing music that is dynamically on par to some jazz and classical, yes? What would EDM sound like if it was -23? What would metal sound like? Selig, what do you aim for in terms of LUFS levels for your music? Shouldn't we all aim for a common goal or range? Ian Sheppard use to say aim for 8, now 6 is acceptable? What next 4 than 2 than 0?

Yup confusing stuff. Maybe loudness doesn't matter because the future will consider loudness normalization? Question is how do you shoot for -23 effectively so you don't wind up with a whimpy overcompressed song on tv or radio?

I'm not dismissing anything. Come on folks, please respond to what I've actually said…jeez.

I'm saying it doesn't concern ME - why are you not hearing this even though I've said it repeatedly?

I DO write music that appears in TV and film, and the film mixers are the ones who make those decisions not me! I don't think you understand how that business works - when someone uses a Beatles song in a film, does it matter it wasn't mixed at -23 LUFS?

I don't measure LUFS, so I don't "aim" for anything, and I DEFINITELY do not "over compress" anything! I make music that is on par (loudness wise) with the references I'm using when I mix (IF I'm even using a reference). My ears are fine at telling me if my mix is louder or softer than the ref mix, just like I'm sure everyone here knows when a commercial comes on that's louder than the program before it (and reaches for the remote control to adjust it to match). That's all I'm doing.

And just so it's clear, I absolutely believe an industry standard (broadcast in this case) IS NECESSARY, which I've acknowledged countless times - but that's not controversial I guess, so you guys have to pretend I've said things I've never said, which causes unnecessary confusion.

It's getting frustrating correcting you guys, I just wish you'd read what I wrote and let's talk about THAT.

I never said you said that. I said I think this is what he is trying to say. I can see how you'd get confused and can see how he might draw that conclusion based on your earlier comments. You guys don't understand each other. Please don't twist my words again. I also know that you do respect R128, and phrased my comment to ask you questions and pick your brain, because I don't know, and respect your experience and knowledge. It was a post that was seeking answers to confusion. It's a frustrating learning curve for ppl who don't have much experience.

Mitch, Selig helps a ton here! This is why I asked.

[selig]

I never said you said that. I said I think this is what he is trying to say. I can see how you'd get confused and can see how he might draw that conclusion based on your earlier comments. You guys don't understand each other. Please don't twist my words again. I also know that you do respect R128, and phrased my comment to ask you questions and pick your brain, because I don't know, and respect your experience and knowledge. It was a post that was seeking answers to confusion. It's a frustrating learning curve for ppl who don't have much experience.

Mitch, Selig helps a ton here! This is why I asked.

No, you didn't say that was what he was TRYING to say, you said (and I quote):
"8cros is saying,".

I'm not twisting your words, I'm quoting them (and again having to correct folks here).
Let's just move on, and you're welcome to have the last word (so I don't get accused of trying to shut folks up…).

[Galaxy]

No no, I'm sorry I should have been more clear. I still never thought you didn't care about R128 anyways. I did ask you a lot of questions that I'm curious about though. These questions are very much on topic.

[selig]

No no, I'm sorry I should have been more clear. I did ask you a lot of questions that I'm curious about though. These questions are very much on topic.

Sorry if I implied anything you said was off topic - can I request a clean slate here and let's start over to avoid further confusion on my part? My mind isn't what it used to be…

[normen]

I think the main disconnect here is that R128 isn't about loudness itself, its more about how the loudness of different tracks work together. Its a means to keep the user/viewer from having to grab his volume knob all the time a new track/video/song comes on. So its really only relevant for the people who do the broadcast, stream or music service - not so much for the people who produce music. They should do as they always did - make their music sound good. The metal and brostep producers can still limit the shit out of their tracks and the jazz producers can still make the ghost notes barely audible - This is where Selig is right.

The only thing thats relevant for music producers is that they don't have to make the tracks as loud as possible just to get an "edge" over the competition - they don't have to compromise audio quality for sounding as loud as the others in the playlist anymore. Which before was quite impossible when a piano ballad was in a playlist with a dubstep song.. - This is where others including 8cros are right. (And what Selig knows as well but didn't talk about)

[selig]

I think the main disconnect here is that R128 isn't about loudness itself, its more about how the loudness of different tracks work together. Its a means to keep the user/viewer from having to grab his volume knob all the time a new track/video/song comes on. So its really only relevant for the people who do the broadcast, stream or music service - not so much for the people who produce music. They should do as they always did - make their music sound good. The metal and brostep producers can still limit the shit out of their tracks and the jazz producers can still make the ghost notes barely audible - This is where Selig is right.

The only thing thats relevant for music producers is that they don't have to make the tracks as loud as possible just to get an "edge" over the competition - they don't have to compromise audio quality for sounding as loud as the others in the playlist anymore. Which before was quite impossible when a piano ballad was in a playlist with a dubstep song.. - This is where others including 8cros are right.

(please include ME in that last part)
And that last part is where we all agree! Group hug…

[Galaxy]

Lol, no problem dude I might be unclear at times. I always have the best of intentions.

Loudness is a confusing topic, but should actually be simple in the end, so we all can grasp it.

For example, we have multiple tools already available in Reason to measure loudness. The big meter, Flower Audio Loudness Meter (which uses LUKS?), Red Rock R128 and Measure, that use the short term, momentary, intermediate measurements?

What confused me for the longest time was to try and learn how R128 affects me? Your answer, and I'm paraphrasing here, it doesn't affect you directly *ducks

It's the broadcast engineers job. They will turn you up or down to "normalize the loudness for broadcast". Why, so commercials don't scream at you, and you're not constantly adjusting the playback volume of your tv or radio, correct?

In practice though, what's the final effect of loudness normalization for program material that enters the broadcast engineer's studio? Does heavy metal Metallica and Mozart wind up sounding equally as loud, and therefore the heavy metal will wind up sounding lifeless and much much much less dynamic compared to classical when loudness normalized?

My perspective has always been to consider all things, even if they don't affect me directly, one day the info might come in handy. I'm not Russian, but care about what goes on in Russia. It broadens my world view.

[Galaxy]

Also, what about online playback normalization? There isn't any ATM? Is there? Upload a crest factor track of 12 and one of 6, and the one that has less dynamic range sounds louder.

[selig]

Lol, no problem dude I might be unclear at times. It always have the best of intentions.

Loudness is a confusing topic, but should actually be simple in the end, so we all can grasp it.

For example, we have multiple tools already available in Reason to measure loudness. The big meter, Flower Audio Loudness Meter (which uses LUKS?), Red Rock R128 and Measure, that use the short term, momentary, intermediate measurements?

What confused me for the longest time was to try and learn how R128 affects me? Your answer, and I'm paraphrasing here, it doesn't affect you directly *ducks

It's the broadcast engineers job. They will turn you up or down to "normalize the loudness for broadcast". Why, so commercials doing scream at you, and you're not constantly adjusting the playback volume of your tv or radio, correct?

In practice though, what's the final effect of loudness normalization for program material that enters the broadcast engineer's studio? Does heavy metal Metallica and Mozart wind up sounding equally as loud, and therefore the heavy metal will wind up sounding lifeless and much much much less dynamic compared to classical when loudness normalized?

My perspective has always been to consider all things, even if they don't affect me directly, one day the info might come in handy. I'm not Russian, but care about what goes on in Russia. It broadens my world view.

I'm not sure if I'm answering your question exactly, but the main issue with digital audio/broadcast has to do with the peak ceiling (0 dBFS) that we cannot go beyond. The "problem" can come if you simply normalize all audio so the highest peaks all touch 0 dBFS. The result is potentially vastly varying loudness levels between tracks that are hyper-dynamic like classical and jazz, and tracks that are non-dynamic such as the afore mentioned Metallica.

My older brother is a long time broadcast engineer (radio) and has taught me (or TRIED to teach me) about these things. He even released a product years ago that allowed varying dynamics to all play at the same level, long before others began to address it. His very novel approach was what I call level "windowing". That is to say, if a song plays loud, it is reduced until it fits the determined "window", and after that as long as it stays within the window, no further processing is necessary. In this way a softer or louder track isn't simply compressed or not, but the level is "ridden" so to speak so that it sits at a pre-determined level. When the next track plays, the process is repeated, moving the level into the "window" then allowing the natural dynamics to play (unless they move beyond the window). It's like a dual threshold compressor of sorts, with a lower and upper threshold. It's also multi-band so that the affects are less obviously "compressed" as is the case with traditional broadcast multi-band devices.
http://www.bwbroadcast.com/news/updates ... the-ariane

[normen]

In practice though, what's the final effect of loudness normalization for program material that enters the broadcast engineer's studio? Does heavy metal Metallica and Mozart wind up sounding equally as loud, and therefore the heavy metal will wind up sounding lifeless and much much much less dynamic compared to classical when loudness normalized?

Yep, pretty much that. The Mozart track will be louder than the Metallica track at certain spots and more silent in others while the Metallica track will be more or less the same volume all the time. Then again, who listens to heavy metal without turning his amplifier to 11 anyway?

[selig]

Also, what about online playback normalization? There isn't any ATM? Is there? Upload a crest factor track of 12 and one of 6, and the one that has less dynamic range sounds louder.

Only if they are peak normalized, which they probably are by default (both peaking at around 0 dBFS). Meaning if no further adjustments are made the one with less dynamic range sounds louder. BUT, if there is traditional processing such as limiting, the less dynamic range track is likely squashed further (depending on the processor settings). OTOH, if something such as my brother's device is used, then they will sound fairly similar (expect the less dynamic track will probably sound more processed/distorted, and maybe even "softer" in some ways). If the 1770 broadcast standards are in play, the two should be similarly "leveled" upon playback if I'm understanding that process correctly (this is where I'd defer to my brother if he were not living in Germany at present).