But is it "music?"

[jonheal]

Since I was a pimply teenager, I have daydreamed about making music. Unfortunately, I was too busy/lazy/intimidated to try to learn an instrument. Decades later, when I discovered Reason, I thought, "Well ... THIS is my ticket to fame and fortune!" Then I tried using it. Aside from not understanding about 90% of it, I found that, no, the music did not just squirt out of it for me. With no playing chops, I could not bang out melodies and harmonies. I had to pencil them into the Sequencer. And even then, I was very disappointed with the results.

I would walk away from Reason altogether for months at a time out of sheer frustration and disappointment with myself. It felt very shitty.

This year, I have begun to get the hang of what is going on with Reason, even with the cables in the back. That sudden accumulation of technical knowledge been very satisfying, but still, there are no musics to speak of.

On another forum, I read one member talking about hearing the complete song in his head. That is not me. I think my brain is music-deaf. And I continue to be as spastic as ever with the playing chops, so there is not much hope in that regard. I often seriously question whether I have any business messing around with Reason at all, and all of the money I spent, maybe I should have put towards my kid's college education.

On the other hand ...

Lately, I have discovered that I enjoy simply modulating a droning sound. Is this music? I don't know. I'm not even sure it is semi-organized noise. But I will sit in front of Subtractor for 15 or 20 minutes, modulating one note. Maybe I will add a few effect devices along the way. This is very hypnotic to me. I literally nearly fall asleep sometimes doing it. I always say I will record what I am doing, but I never do. It usually sounds very bland at first and I can't make myself hit the record button. It takes four or five minutes to get interesting. By that point, I have forgotten about the record button. Or I don't want to take my fingers off the knobs.

Is this a legitimate way to spend one's time? I don't know. I enjoy it, but I don't know if anyone else would enjoy the results. The cats often leave the room. I like very harsh drones sometimes.

I can easily feel guilty and ridiculous about associating this activity with music or creativity, in general, because I think it is something literally anyone could do to one degree or another.

Anyway ... just feeling insecure ...

[8cros]

Did you hear that?
I'm a fan of this tracks.
This is something that one has turned me upside down.

Once I have often listened to it, and I always made fun of my friends:
"This is not music, the noise of running water, one note..."


"It's just the best music!" - so said a friend of mine, then, during a psychedelic trip.

It was Uranus.

And further.
Do not think that the silence of the imagination is a bad thing. We need the right conditions for an audio hallucination of the music. We need rituals. You know what I mean?

[bxbrkrz]

If it is music for you then it is.

[8cros]

Re: But is it "music?"


I feel that you want to get creative insight. But this is not the same thing as power or possession.
Silence, it's not bad. Because the music that is within us, attacking us. And it do not belongs to us, and can not be owned.

So silence it is happiness.

[8cros]

I can not say that this is possible without drugs. Because each step is needed.
Someone might lucid dreams. We are all different.
But I'm absolutely sober and do not use any drugs except water and a pinch of tea.
I hate alcohol and do not smoke.

I am calm.

I therefore very light and laughing. It `s music.

[platzangst]

"Noise music" has been around for decades, with its own little subcultures. Some musicians concentrate on the "harsh noise wall" while others build complex layers of clashing sounds. I often make non-melodic audio collages and soundscapes.

The fact that some of this would seem relatively easy to produce compared to the work a skilled pianist might bring to bear playing a Rachmaninoff piece does not, in my view, make it any less "music". If you produce sound with intent, that's art, as much a form of expression as an abstract Rothko canvas.

[Aggie]

I relate to this. My early days with Reason were very much the same. I used to loop pieces for literally hours (tbh I sometimes still do). For me, it's the satisfaction of creating a sound that is unique - and, more importantly, pleasing to me. I find the whole process therapeutic. You may smirk but, for me, it's the same as relaxing by doing a mundane task (ironing, cleaning, watching brainless TV, etc.) and it gives my poor brain a rest. In that process I feel rested, invigorated and I have a sense of achievement, too.

Whether it is "music" is beside the point, because it is the process you focus on - not necessarily the result. I love Reason because of the ease with which you can make iterations and - while it is not the same as using physical instruments - if you strike a chord or note that is particularly pleasing, you can squirrel it away (if you remember to save it!) and pick it up again months later - and you don't have to remember how you came about it, nor do you struggle to re-create it!

Echoing some of the comments in the thread, there is an industry out there for this type of "musing" - mainly ambient or progressive genres. But music, in itself, is like art - if it's music to you - then it is music!

Cheers,
aggie

[jonheal]

Well, thanks for the moral support, folks.

I will continue to hum, screech and drone. I don't have much choice in the matter, really.

I do, in fact, wish to be a "serious" artist, so I will endeavor to treat the hums, screeches and drones as art to the extent that I can convince myself to do so.

I have the same issues on the visual front with my humble collages.

[pushedbutton]

Music is heard, not played. Just as offence is taken, not given.

[Aggie]

Music is heard, not played. Just as offence is taken, not given.

This

[Noplan]

In my opinion the rhythmic part and sounddesign are more important and more difficult than notes.

if you have build a complex and flowing rhythm and sound you don't need many or correct notes to create an interesting song.

all you need to know about music theory fits on a beer mat.

[selig]

Agree with all of the above, but personally struggle more with notes than with rhythm and sound design.

Right now I'm listening to a drone from a project I'm building in Reaktor, a chord cluster with detuning, swirling around and around. It's been on for almost an hour now and I'm still not tired of it. I personally love working on long boring modular synth patches that only I (and a few geeky friends) could enjoy. It's all "music" to me, and it all gives me joy which is priceless IMO.

[Aggie]

The ambience of a piece can work as a backdrop for almost anything. By that, I mean as long as it doesn't detract from whatever it is you are doing. Radio and 'audio-only' is a great medium, because it doesn't attack all of your senses at once (unlike TV/video/gaming). It isn't really that immersive - unless you actually want it to be.

Following on from "is it music?"; I agree that you have to have some idea about music theory - and I agree it really doesn't need to be that much at all. If you know basic chord structure - and you don't stray too far into the sharps and flats - generally you'll find any piece/track appealing. The worst you can do is pick a wrong note or a wrong vibe and, almost instantly, your ears/brain will say "hang on - that doesn't sound right...". So, as long as you don't get alarm bells ringing when you're working through a piece, it's generally safe to say that it's your music.

I always try to keep things as simple as possible, per track I'm laying down. The end result may be very complex, but take a single track and it makes sense, standing out on it's own. I generally use that analogy to work out if what I'm doing would be appealing to others, too. But not always!

Insofar as melodies for chords, I generally use the 2 or 3 notes available in the chord - usually at a different octave, with just 1 or 2 more notes that I find don't jar too much when you throw them in. Yes - really that simple!

For me, music is like a language of it's own. You can make it complex, with a convoluted storyline and multiple meanings, depending on interpretation. Or it can be as simple as "yes" or "no". The majority of the time, it's about interpretation, resonance - and something people call "soul". If you put your heart and soul into it, it shows - if you throw it together in 5 minutes - it also shows...

Just my thoughts, FWIW.

aggie

[modecca]

"I can easily feel guilty and ridiculous about associating this activity with music or creativity"

For some reason this post has made me think about artistic dissapointment;

Perceived artistic failure due to sloppy goal construction (the clumbsy artists curse):

Two goals most people have with reason is to create music they are happy with and that other people like.

The reality is, that for many those goals are too broad and thus unattainable. If you do x and expect the world, you will never meet your expectations and feel dissapointed frequently.

Like the stubborn lottery player or the dumb drug addict, we continue to try to reach these vague goals, with more new toys, training, experiments.

To combat falling into this clumbsy persuit, the s.m.r.t method of of analyzing and creating goals can be quite effective:

If I make sure every artistic goal I have is:
1)Specific.
2)Measurable.
4)Realistic.
5)Timely.

I define my outcomes, do not not rely on others to define them and am not routinely dissapointed by them.

[jonheal]

I agree that it is easy to set vague goals and overestimate results. But I think I would have difficulty defining criteria for those goal parameters you listed.

Can you give a quick example as to how you would apply those four parameters to making something with Reason?

[WongoTheSane]

I love your songs. If only you pressed Record at the beginning of every session, I'm pretty sure you'd have quite a body of work by now...

[modecca]

I agree that it is easy to set vague goals and overestimate results. But I think I would have difficulty defining criteria for those goal parameters you listed.

Can you give a quick example as to how you would apply those four parameters to making something with Reason?

Looking at everything you wrote in totality, I would say this is the most relevant question:
--------------------------------
Specific (1 question):
1) Could my time be spent better not playing around with reason?
-----------------------------------------
Measureable: (3 questions):

1) What are the 3 most important things to me?
2) Is music on that list?
3) Did messing with music prevent me from dedicating some time from any of those 3 things yesterday.
----------------------------------------------------------
Realistic: Answering those questions is easy.
-------------------------------------------------------
Timely: Answer all three questions in 10 minitues max; Based on the answers to those 3 questions purely, take 5 minitues max to answer the main question at the top with a yes or no.
Take 5 minitues max to base a new specific question/goal off the yes or no answer.
Lets say answer is no (music is not taking up that much time from my other priorities) Then a logical next specific question/goal:
-------------------------------------------
Specific (goal or question):
Spend an hour on actually creating and recording a 10 min drone performance.
Listen to it all the way through 1 time.
----------------------------------------
Measurable (3 questions):
What is good?
What is not so good?
What if anything will I do differently next time?
------------------------------------------
Realistic: this goal is easy.
----------------------------------------------
Timely: Hour on the song max, 10 min listening to it twice 15 min max answering three questions.

Take 5 minitues max to make a new specific question or goal based off the 3 measurable questions.
------------------------------------------------------
So this is a structure that can be used as an infinite loop or you can start a new one unrelated to the previous.

Notice you can be flexible with how you use this structure.

I would use this structure to answer these questions too:


Is drone sound music?
Do I like listening to drone music?
Do I like making drone music?
Do others like listening to drone music?
Do I want to make a sincere effort to make money with this?
Am I willing to spend an hour on actually making a song?
Why does it matter if anyone can do the type of music I make?

[jonheal]

You seem like you might be a pragmatic person. I am not particularly pragmatic, and I know there are pluses and minuses with both modes of thinking. But you have spent time to outline the questions for me, so as an experiment, I will answer them as honestly as possible and respond tomorrow.

[modecca]

You seem like you might be a pragmatic person. I am not particularly pragmatic, and I know there are pluses and minuses with both modes of thinking. But you have spent time to outline the questions for me, so as an experiment, I will answer them as honestly as possible and respond tomorrow.

Sounds good.

Posts like this I find fascinating because we can really explore why we

actually feel disappointed as artists.
Once we know the why, tons of inspiration is just around the corner.

I simply use this structure to help me with the 'artists curse':
Waiting around for epiphanies or somthing huge to happen,
when simply using a structured method, helps us take our creative uncertainty and get much more out of it.

Uncertainy used correctly becomes curiosity, instead of dissapointment demotivation and the ugly side effects that come with those already ugly experiences.

[Carol Rein]

Well... As a classical composer, I'm in the opposite sidewalk... but I always try to be open minded because we don't own the music nor create it, we just help it to make itself tangible here.
I just tell you how I started and how I discovered the music.
At my 13 my father bought me a Giaccaglia 2 octave wind organ.


But I never put those papers with the musical notes (as the picture shows), as I didn't know anything about musical notation.

At first I sarted playing melodies by ear, finding the notes that matched with what I was listening (usually romantic songs from my mother cassettes, Julio Iglesias, Luis Miguel and such latin singers) I hadn't got my own musical taste yet. But I played my organ matching the songs.
Then I discovered that playing three keys at the same time I could sing the songs, and some keys combinations were matching somehow what I was listening from the cassette (the orchestral thing)
So I discovered the world of harmony. But I didn't know what i was doing. Not even a bit. I just played some keys combinations and it sounded good.
So many years later, at my 19 I got a job and I bought my first electronic organ


And it had 8 tracks sequencer (no quantize, no motifs, no loops) and I started to record the key combinations (chords) in one track, and some added short melodies that enriched the song in other tracks (I didn't know they were called arrangements).

At first time it was a pasty thing, full of overlapped things, producing an unpleasant orchestration.

Then I started to identify some secondary beauty melodies (that's how I called the arrangements) in the singers orchestration and I started to understand how and when violins did work, the same for the piano, and the choir, and other instruments.

But I've always been kinda insensitive to percussive sounds... as a result I liked multiple genres as long as they have nice melodies, and regardless the genre itself I found the same pattern behind.
Years later, when listening to classics, I understood that "the order" came from there, and all about harmony and melodies that I liked in many genres was a modification of the main classical movements.
And I understood that the rythm thing was coming from earlier ages, from ancient Afrika (Lemuria)... where the primitive souls didn't know about harmony, but just pure rythm.

Regarding Reason, I discovered that software and the most impressive feature for me was the polyphony!!! As in organs or hardware sound modules it always have been a nightmare... always insufficient for thick orchestral compositions... unless you had a lot of money to buy a lot of sampler modules... and that was what Reason offered me!! A lot of unlimited sampler modules. The NN-XT was a dream come true with 99 poloy each group!!!!!! And the possibility to put as many groups as you wanted, and as many NN-XT as you wanted...
Simply shocking
Then, as a result of my learning process, my modus operandi is just "press rec and play the melody". As it were an analog tape multitrack recorder (no quantize, no loops, no motifs, no rythm machines, nothing but play the isntruments) And I try to keep working that way.

Then, after the years has passed, and I can say about mucic composition (and any artistic creation):

Never get bionics before you become a good circus acrobat, otherwise your bionics will kill you due your lack of equilibrium.

[Aggie]

Just have to say loving this thread and may it continue forever.... bu that's just me...

[angorapostfrosch]

...
Is this a legitimate way to spend one's time? I don't know. I enjoy it, but I don't know if anyone else would enjoy the results. The cats often leave the room. I like very harsh drones sometimes.

I can easily feel guilty and ridiculous about associating this activity with music or creativity, in general, because I think it is something literally anyone could do to one degree or another.

Anyway ... just feeling insecure ...

You think anybody could do the same? No! Sure, most people have the physical abilities to do it. But many people do not have any interest in sounds or music at all. Also many do not like harsh sounds. Many hate the idea of spending time creating things without practical use. Many people couldn't stand tweaking virtual knobs on software devices, even if they enjoy making music. I will stop here, but the list could be continued for hundreds of pages) You are the one with the ability to enjoy all those things and because of that doing it with passion.

What you should really ask yourself: Is my activity creative or musically per definition and/or in the perception of other people? But asking that is just the step to the one important question that I would ask myself! Does it matter?

For the first part: If you look up the definitions in dictionaries, Wikipedia etc ,you will find that it actually is fitting the definitions. Perception on the other hand is something which depends on the subject who is judging. Every person has his own mindset and experiences which are used for the judging process. Ask 10 individuals and you get 10 different opinions.

For the second part (Does it matter?): Try to reflect your own experiences and interests. Why do you do what you do?

When I am playing around with samples, software or hardware instruments, my personal value of the experience doesn't depend on statements other people make, like "What you do has nothing to do with music" or "You are just wasting time and money". It also doesn't raise in value when people say "That sounds good".

I really enjoy spending my time with connecting virtual and/or real cables, feeding sometimes only 1 note into this collection of devices, turning knobs until I get a timbre or effect that just seems to resonate with me. Then, depending of the sound/timbre, I get one of those facial expressions like children when they get really excited about something or like when you are truly comfortable, the loved one in your arm, pure satisfaction from the moment. Feet start to move, or, it starts to tickle a tiny bit in my spine. Resulting in getting busy with the mouse, keys or whatever or closing eyes, gently tweaking knobs until you reach a state like falling asleep or even doing it. Either way I get totally absorbed. Everything else starts to fade away, no sense for hunger, pain, time or anything else.

Is it music? For many people it is not. For me it doesn't matter if it is. Does it result in anything usable? No, I almost never record anything or safe any patches. I just enjoy the process. Would I spend my time again doing it, even if there is enough on my to-do list? Yes, even more! Would I spend my money again on REs or real instruments, even if I would know for sure, that I never will release or even finish a song? Yes!

I do not care one second if others think what I am doing makes sense. I enjoy it, it doesn't harm anyone, I will keep doing it.

And I truly hope that everyone else who is asking himself will come to a similar result, because those kind of activities are satisfying, keep you sane, keep your brain working and your inner flame burning. No matter if other people can or can not connect with it or even do the same or better.


That is my thought on the topic, text got longer than expected. Hope it somehow makes sense in one one way or another to you.

[modecca]

This topic is a monster. Here is an example of me starting with a Q/A structure to ensure thoughtful discourse is included at the beginning middle and end of each project, so I am not stuck hoping things will magically turn out 'good'.

[modecca]

I love this documentary

[jonheal]

I will attempt my one hour composition tonight. Maybe. Or maybe I'll just watch another movie on NETFLIX ...