Dear Verdane, Reason's VST Performance is a Serious Productivity & Creativity Killer

[davidvilla]

Geeze, so many performance complaints. Here's mine.

As a person who chooses to primarily use VSTs in Reason, I've concluded that it's just not worth the time TO ME to use Reason 9.5.1 for any serious work.

Here's why:

So I'm building a track in Reason using:

1 Omnisphere
2 Sylenths
2 Slate Drum instruments
1 Trillian Bass
1 Pianoteq piano
1 NI Strummed Acoustic
1 of those Prop Guitar REs

So far Reason is behaving nicely.

So then I start adding effects, the smart way - trying not to choke one channel with too many effects.

9 instances of the waves SSL
3 L1's
1 H-Delay
1 Eventide Harmonizer
1 Waves Doubler
3 Ren Reverbs as send effects

CPU is getting busier, but still room left for more.

So I add some plugs to my master:

1 waves C4
1 CLA Mixdown (which is terrific by the way)
An IK EQ 432
1 Waves Stereo Imager

Reason is now stuttering and crackling and playback is suffering. Only thing is I'm not done with my song yet. I still have parts to add. BUT I CAN'T ADD ANYTHING ELSE.

So since this is a 99.9% all vst affair, I decide to rebuild everything in Logic exactly as it is in Reason.

WOW, WHAT A DIFFERENCE.

Screen Shot 2017-07-12 at 6.26.18 PM.png (10.68 KiB) Viewed 3472 times

And that's with an instance of Slate VCC on each channel, plus a Slate mix buss on the master AND an instance of Ozone 7 (which completely killed my Reason track).

Needless to say I've switched over to Logic to continue working.

I've run out of CPU before, but have never had to stop using Reason to rebuild my project in another DAW so that I could finish it.

Today was the first day Reason completely killed my productivity and creativity.

Shame on you, Reason. SHAME!

Do you even care, Verdane???

[aeox]

No problems here :/ I wonder why there is such mixed results with everyone. Either way I hope it gets figured out eventually.

[ProfessaKaos]

Reason definitely uses more CPU/DSP when using plugins compared to Pro Tools also.
Hope Propellerhead keep working on this to bring Reason up to par with plugin DSP/CPU usage that other DAW;s are at, because it is not the plugin that is doing this, it is the host. I've seen video's where Studio One is like double the performance of Reason with same plugins used.

[chimp_spanner]

So I'll get the butt-kissing out of the way first I've definitely been a whole bunch more creative with Reason since the implementation of VSTs. And with the latest update I've seen my CPU usage halve in native projects. So it's good that PH are focusing on performance.

Now with that said, VSTs do feel a bit heavier in Reason for me still, but only in some instances. Take the EQs from the Komplete bundle for instance. If I add one in an empty project and duplicate it, the CPU bar rises with each new instance until it just tops out. With nothing else in the project. But not all plugins do this. It seems to vary from developer to developer. So IMO there's *something* going on. I'm just not sure what yet. Like I said, 9.5.1 shows that performance is a focus for PH and I think that we can expect to see some further optimisation in subsequent point updates moving towards version 10.

A typical project for me at the moment is probably 70/30 native/VST. So I'm running a few Kontakts with things like Albion ONE, Action Strikes, a handful of synths like DUNE 2, Serum, Reaktor. And for the most part things are really usable. For me it's a case of asking if I *need* to use a given plugin instead of a native or RE device. Which is not to say you shouldn't be able to use what you want, especially if you can do so in Logic or Cubase or whatever. But ya know, if I can get away with using The Echo, or Deep Reverb, or any number of fantastic dynamics processing REs and the SSL channel strip, then I will. Not least because the integration is better but also because they appear to be far better optimised for Reason.

None of this is erm, "victim blaming" haha. Goes without saying you should be able to use whatever you want, although I feel you'd be missing a trick if you didn't take advantage of any rack devices at all. The whole appeal for me is bringing the two worlds together. The Rack is what made me abandon Cubase in the first place, so VSTs have an important but secondary role in my projects. But I hope (and am confident) that Props will address VST performance in coming updates. Because there's still a little bit of work left to do. But I mean, the fact I was able to halve my native rack performance with 9.5.1 shows that big changes can happen in small updates. Don't give up hope just yet!

[Gorgon]

I don't think that PH's approach was "stuff as much VST into Reason as humanly possible", but rather "hey, if you want to use that particular VST, you can!".

So you're doing it wrong.

[Loque]

I heard similar comments from friends using other DAWs. The VSTs are much slower in Reason. But on the other side Reason is incredible slow if using Reason in ReWire in Ableton (looks like only one core is used). So some of them decided to give Reason a kick in the butt and switched completely, but still with a tear in the eye.

I dont know what causes those performance issues, but i think there is room to improve and needs to be done. IMO Reason now has decided to be a DAW and they need to catch up a few years where they had a different strategy. If you are already behind competitors that are still improving their products, you have a hard and long way to go in a shorter time. If PH wants to get that way, they need to invest, invest more in Reason rather than in pointless apps and web-platforms. It will require a good balance between openness, stability, performance, maintainability, pricing, innovation, requested features aso... Get on Top or get Lost...

[EdGrip]

I wildly speculate that because Reason was originally built with native devices in mind, as a closed complete system, that the core of it is maybe a bit "heavier" than an "empty" sequencer/mixer/VST-host DAW.
But I don't use any other DAWs for anything other than a bit of audio editing, so I haven't got the means to compare the CPU use of an empty Reason project at startup to that of, say, Cubase or Live.
If they are more or less the same, or if Reason is lighter, then Reason definitely has a handicap with VSTs.

[jonheal]

I'm not sure getting the bean counters involved is the way to go ...

[davidvilla]

I'm not sure getting the bean counters involved is the way to go ...

Oh really? Why not? They own 60% of the company.

And check this out: http://www.breakit.se/artikel/7163/glad ... ner-kronor


"We are good at dealing with performance issues. It is one of the things that distinguishes us that our products are very processor-friendly. "
- Ernst

[chimp_spanner]

I'm not sure getting the bean counters involved is the way to go ...

Oh really? Why not? They own 60% of the company.

And check this out: http://www.breakit.se/artikel/7163/glad ... ner-kronor


"We are good at dealing with performance issues. It is one of the things that distinguishes us that our products are very processor-friendly. "
- Ernst

I don't know if that quote was specifically referencing VSTs? Certainly when it comes to stock devices and REs yeah, Reason is super efficient. I don't think I've ever run out of CPU, except when using things like Viking 2, eXpanse. So that's certainly not a falsehood; not in the context of the native rack environment. Like I said, I expect further optimisation to come as the updates roll out. My post wasn't suggesting that you're wrong for wanting to use entirely VSTs. Just that there are ways you can continue to work by substituting comparable racks for plugins, while the community puts the software through its paces. I've always wanted VSTs in Reason but I also knew they'd be in for a rough ride catering to all these new combinations of hardware and software, where previously they only had a closed ecosystem to worry about!

[superpop]

Geeze, so many performance complaints. Here's mine.

As a person who chooses to primarily use VSTs in Reason, I've concluded that it's just not worth the time TO ME to use Reason 9.5.1 for any serious work.

Here's why:

So I'm building a track in Reason using:

1 Omnisphere
2 Sylenths
2 Slate Drum instruments
1 Trillian Bass
1 Pianoteq piano
1 NI Strummed Acoustic
1 of those Prop Guitar REs

So far Reason is behaving nicely.

So then I start adding effects, the smart way - trying not to choke one channel with too many effects.

9 instances of the waves SSL
3 L1's
1 H-Delay
1 Eventide Harmonizer
1 Waves Doubler
3 Ren Reverbs as send effects

CPU is getting busier, but still room left for more.

So I add some plugs to my master:

1 waves C4
1 CLA Mixdown (which is terrific by the way)
An IK EQ 432
1 Waves Stereo Imager

Reason is now stuttering and crackling and playback is suffering. Only thing is I'm not done with my song yet. I still have parts to add. BUT I CAN'T ADD ANYTHING ELSE.

So since this is a 99.9% all vst affair, I decide to rebuild everything in Logic exactly as it is in Reason.

WOW, WHAT A DIFFERENCE.

Screen Shot 2017-07-12 at 6.26.18 PM.png

And that's with an instance of Slate VCC on each channel, plus a Slate mix buss on the master AND an instance of Ozone 7 (which completely killed my Reason track).

Needless to say I've switched over to Logic to continue working.

I've run out of CPU before, but have never had to stop using Reason to rebuild my project in another DAW so that I could finish it.

Today was the first day Reason completely killed my productivity and creativity.

Shame on you, Reason. SHAME!

Do you even care, Verdane???

I'm with you. Every time i put a new Vst in the rack my heart stops. What I do is bounce the instruments to save resources for Fxs.

I like Reason more but Reaper vs Reason performance is absurd too.

[jonheal]

Oh really? Why not?

Just 'cuz!

[davidvilla]

Meh - it's useless talking about this. This is just a rant.

And yeah, bouncing is an option. I know every CPU saving workaround in existence. But should I really have to be consciously thinking about that while I write? No. Like I said, it's a creativity killer to be thinking about technical things like this. The tool should not get in the way.

Regarding not using all VSTs (lol) - well there's no rack extension or native device as good as (in my opinion) Omnisphere or Sylenth (no, a billion Thors stacked together do NOT sonically equal ONE Sylenth) or Trillian or Slate Drums or Pianoteq. And the effects I am using are considerable improvements (in MY opinion) over any RE or stock device, and apart from maybe the EQ 432, they're all pretty CPU friendly. What drives me crazy though is that Logic is at like 40% CPU with the SAME devices, PLUS more that I added on.

I know they claim they are working on it. *waiting...*

So then lemme re-word Ernst's statement to reflect the VST release:

"We are good at dealing with performance issues (but not with VSTs). It is one of the things that distinguishes us that our products are very processor-friendly (but only if you use stock devices and certain REs, because we have performance issues with most of those too). "

- Ernst

[madmacman]

Meh - it's useless talking about this. This is just a rant.

Sure, but if you do it in public, then expect objections.

As I stated elsewhere: No one can expect an equal (or better) product than the competitors who do VST (or AU) for decades...

So I'm with Gorgon here: In the first run, VST's are just a welcome addition - they have implemented the interface and you can use a VST every now and then. But most of the users should use Reason as before: mainly with stock devices and some more RE's.

If you expect Reason to become instantly a Cubase (or Logic, or Reaper) "killer", then you have to move on.

As usual: just my $0.02

[joeyluck]

What version of macOS are you on? If you are on 10.12 Sierra you might be experiencing Reason performance issues like I am. I had better performance on my old 2008 MacBook Pro which was running 10.9 Mavericks. But I have seen an increase in performance, as expected, in all my other software.

[davidvilla]

Meh - it's useless talking about this. This is just a rant.

Sure, but if you do it in public, then expect objections.

It's useless because no one here other than the Props can do anything about it. I don't care about any objections. I do HATE workarounds though. Story of my Reason life...goddamn workarounds.

I'm on Sierra. Have zero issues with Logic AND Pro Tools.

[jonheal]

Then why keep punishing yourself? If the hammer hurts, stop striking it against one's brain case.

[joeyluck]

Sure, but if you do it in public, then expect objections.

It's useless because no one here other than the Props can do anything about it. I don't care about any objections. I do HATE workarounds though. Story of my Reason life...goddamn workarounds.

I'm on Sierra. Have zero issues with Logic AND Pro Tools.

Yeah, so a good amount of the poor performance you are experiencing is probably due to Sierra. Although, the OS shouldn't be to blame when other software is performing as it should. I suppose the latest OS versions simply unveiled issues with Reason?

[jonheal]

The way I see it, there are a million VST hosts, all excellent, I suppose. Reason is a lame VST host? Maybe, but so what? Use one of the others. Most people here complaining seem to own multiple hosts.

Obviously, I can see the advantage of having ONE host that does EVERYTHING perfectly, but that may never happen.

Just enjoy Reason for its unique aspects.

[CephaloPod]

We just went from ZERO Vst in Reason to OMG almost every VST in Reason. I'm not going to whine just yet because Reason is not as optimized on a Mac as Logic (owned by Apple).

[davidvilla]

Then why keep punishing yourself? If the hammer hurts, stop striking it against one's brain case.

Because I like the workflow, and I've been using it since version 2 and I know it practically inside and out which makes working with it really fast. And I hate the dinky bare bones "Reason sound" (uh-oh) so VSTs are a welcome addition.

[Raveshaper]

Today was the first day Reason completely killed my productivity and creativity.

Amen, that happened to me a while back once i learned what other programs could do.

I'm going to get into Cubase next and probably compliment it with Live and S1 to switch things up. Helps to learn more than one to work with all kinds of people.

Also, Verdane ponies the cash. Propellerhead makes decisions and reports to Verdane every quarter. It isn't like Verdane is making these decisions.

[Hauser+Quaid]

So I'm with Gorgon here: In the first run, VST's are just a welcome addition - they have implemented the interface and you can use a VST every now and then. But most of the users should use Reason as before: mainly with stock devices and some more RE's.

If you expect Reason to become instantly a Cubase (or Logic, or Reaper) "killer", then you have to move on.

As usual: just my $0.02

I'm glad you wrote this. Over the past week I've been using more and more VSTs in my projects, basically leaning on old crutches, which is something I didn't want to do. I have more than enough REs to get the job done, and when I need to I can sprinkle a Serum or a Nexus or whatever.

Still kinda lusting after ProQ2 though... even though I have like 85 EQs

[decoder]

Yawn! Here we go with the 'Reason sound' thread-destroying arguments again...

[davidvilla]

Also, Verdane ponies the cash. Propellerhead makes decisions and reports to Verdane every quarter. It isn't like Verdane is making these decisions.

We'll see.

Stay tuned.