Is musical ability genetic?

[zeebot]

Hmm, well my sister is a jazz singer and I have a few nephews who make their own music sooooo this might be true?
Does musical knowhow run in your family?

watch from start to 2.44ish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsF-tAf58Vg

[avasopht]

It's genetic and shared amongst all human beings

[orthodox]

Examples of abilities of relatives do not necessarily point to genetics.
This may be a result of common environment or influence.
There are many counter examples as well.
Even if genetics matter, I think it's of the lowest degree.

[vocoderboy]

Examples of abilities of relatives do not necessarily point to genetics. This may be a result of common environment or influence. There are many counter examples as well. Even if genetics matter, I think it's of the lowest degree.

completely agree 

[Ostermilk]

Big bang or evolution, nature or nuture, as with everything these aren't really mutually exclusive choices, the answer to these puzzles is usually yes to both things to varied extents rather than a straight one vs the other, or an arbitrary decision about which of those two factors is most important.

The right space and time also plays it's part in defining the exceptional.

For example, who knows for sure that the most 'gifted' musician that ever lived never had the chance to play an instrument in their entire lives as they were engaged in the business of surviving by some other means?

[orthodox]

For example, who knows for sure that the most gifted musician that ever lived never had the chance to play an instrument in their entire lives as they were engaged in the business of surviving by some other means?

You are implying the existence of some sort of "potential" when it is exactly what is contested.
There are examples of people that were proved to have no sense of music at all in their youth, yet they developed into decent musicians later.

[3rd Floor Sound]

I think it's more that passion is contagious and that it leads to practice, which leads to ability.

[Ostermilk]

For example, who knows for sure that the most gifted musician that ever lived never had the chance to play an instrument in their entire lives as they were engaged in the business of surviving by some other means?

You are implying the existence of some sort of "potential" when it is exactly what is contested. There are examples of people that were proved to have no sense of music at all in their youth, yet they developed into decent musicians later.

And?

Mozart by that token would have probably made a fine stonemason.  So what?

It's the kind of inconclusive navel gazing that won't amount to a hill of beans no matter how much debate gets engaged in about it.

All of the things I mentioned undeniably play a part so who among us is qualified to accurately calculate which of each of the many variables involved has the most significance in any individual case?

Alrighty, Rachmaninov had a huge hand span did he learn to have big hands off his parents?  What if the Beatles had been born 20 years earlier?  Debussy's parents decided to move to Argentina to raise cattle when he was an infant what then?

[JNeffLind]

I know that music runs in my family, but the degree of aptitude definitely varies from person to person. My brother is an anaesthesiologist who writes songs. Sister is a psychologist who writes songs. Dad is a neuroscientist who has written songs that got radio play. Mom plays piano and can play all sorts of challenging classical stuff, can play all of Chopin, etc.

Goes to the extended family as well. 

[orthodox]

And?

There can be many things imagined which contradict each other.
We can't have two histories or identical people to try things out.
We only have real cases which cannot be undone.

Rachmaninov's big hands were a physical quality. There are a lot more people with big hands who never make it as musicians.

[Tincture]

Genetic? No. It's a bit of a bad question. A rather ill informed and dated qualifier. The randomness of genetic mutation and impression are well known now thankfully.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

[Benedict]

My brother is an anaesthesiologist who writes songs.

Is his name Kenny G?  :s0225: :s0717:

I would expect that it is a combination of some biological and environmental. My dear old Da was trained as a Cathedral Organist/Choirmaster/Harpsichordist. Pretty full-on stuff. He played Baroque and some Classical records in the house and on the harpsichords that he (and I) built. I have a music thing going on. My brothers like music but don't play anything at all - never interested.

My Father and I have (had really as he is no more) some distinct similarities of personality/character makeup and those similarities are probably what had me key into the order of sound and music. It made sense to me on a certain level even though I couldn't get the sense of theory.

[avasopht]

Any genetic abilities could be picked up by throwing them into a genetic database, though you'd want to eliminate other influences as much as possible such as family lineage.

The disjunction of passed down tradition between Africans and slave descendants could provide ample data.

[Tincture]

Any genetic abilities could be picked up by throwing them into a genetic database, though you'd want to eliminate other influences as much as possible such as family lineage. The disjunction of passed down tradition between Africans and slave descendants could provide ample data.

I am amazed by the above. I really don't know what to say. There is no such thing as "genetic abilities" or even genetics! The mixing of DNA by 2 individuals (or soon to be possible, 3 in the UK) is a currently unknown and unpredictable process that can result in infants far removed in traits of their parents as much as a coincidence of those traits. Time of conception, the health of each parent etc are known factors but these are equally prejudiced by unknown factors.

To say that the parents determine a child's abilities or characteristics (edit: prior to nurturing) is naive at best.

Edit: I'm surprised I could even write this! I really shouldn't post when that drunk. At least it seems as though most people managed to ignore me or rise above it :s0717:

[Tincture]

We are all family. Whoever, wherever you are, we have a common ancestor within the last few hundred years. X x

Edit: :t0305:
And have to go much further back to find supermamma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

[Ostermilk]

Yippee!  Some prize bull for us all to ponder.

[Julibee]

Without really getting into any science of any kind, I can only add that I grew up with a large, extended family that would get together each Christmas and sing traditional carols every night (all verses of each carol. "We Three Kings" drags on f.o.r.e.v.e.r.). We lived in different states, most of us saw each other only twice a year. I never realized how talented the whole family was until I went to a birthday party, and I was the only one who could sing "Happy Birthday" in tune. There usually was no tune at other people's parties, and they often sang in five different keys at once. I started wondering if a.) my family wasn't normal" or b.) if the other family wasn't "normal"... Many years and many birthday parties later, I've come to the conclusion that my family actually are outliers (either that, or people don't give a damn about singing nice for Cousin Brad). I'm the only one who is vocally trained, but once upon a time my brother was *extremely* talented (I'm sure he still is, but pursues other interests). My mom is a very high soprano with an even faster vibrato than mine. One Aunt is a long time professional stage manager-- She sings beautifully, but she only listens to show tunes (she used to travel with Musicals... Richard Burton was an asshat. Lily Tomlin and Carol Burnett are lovely). Also, She flat out said she wouldn't even listen to my album if I gave her a copy. Hahahaha! Crazy ass Italians.

[ebop]

I gather Mozart had traits that indicated he was on the spectrum. I wonder if this meant he could see/feel/hear things that most couldn't. I'm not suggesting anyone with musical ability is on the spectrum, and I'm no expert in this subject, but I'm thinking most of us have our 'ways' and I bet some of these ways mean that some are more musically inclined and operate at a different level naturally.

[avasopht]

I am amazed by the above. I really don't know what to say. There is no such thing as "genetic abilities" or even genetics! The mixing of DNA by 2 individuals (or soon to be possible, 3 in the UK) is a currently unknown and unpredictable process that can result in infants far removed in traits of their parents as much as a coincidence of those traits. Time of conception, the health of each parent etc are known factors but these are equally prejudiced by unknown factors.

To say that the parents determine a child's abilities or characteristics (edit: prior to nurturing) is naive at best.

I said if they were genetic, and what do you mean genetics don't exist? You've lost me there completely?!? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics

Now our abilities as a species is undoubtedly determined by our genes, it's why humans generally possess the ability for mathematics and music composition whole chimpanzees don't (at least they don't demonstrate it).

Nobody knows for certain how much influence genetics has on intellectual ability between humans.

Both me, my grandfather and so his children had exceptional natural mathematic ability. Like, I pretty much taught myself to add up in my head by the age of 4 (like 4 digits in under a second). My mum and all her siblings were taught to read at the age of 3 (or was it 2), and I mean actually read.

I never learned to read that young because I was not taught, but I know my maths was highly influenced by the fact my mother taught me to count early combined with my easily obsession with trying to identify the rules/algorithms behind patterns as an infant.

All of us including my grandmother today remember clearly right back to infancy, where people sat in school and many details often forgotten. Is that due to a genetic predisposition or is it a passed down behaviour.

Just fyi, nature versus nature is still in debate in psychology. Nobody has the answer so to call someone naive for even siding with one is a little ignorant. Nobody knows for certain.

Note: Aspergers syndrome is accepted as being genetically determined, and have on average a higher level of intelligence. That fact alone demonstrates a genetic influence on mental ability, though I believe for the most part that barring a few unfortunate and exceptional genetic traits, we can all reach the same levels of general intelligence.

[JNeffLind]

My brother is an anaesthesiologist who writes songs.

Is his name Kenny G?  :s0225: :s0717:

No, but I bet his house is comparable to the incomparable Mr. G, aka G-Love, aka G-trigger-gangsta-what! Anaesthesiologists make bank!

In all seriousness, would you accept Kenny G's money and status if you also had to accept his hair? (talking full early nineties glory, don't know what he looks like now)

[Flandersh]

To prove a connection between given abilities and genetics scientifically would be very hard since one easy run into the case of parallellism:

The thesis is inteligible only because, by an unconscious trick of intellectual conjuring, we pass instantly from realism to idealism and from idealism to realism, showing ourselves in the one at the very moment when we are going to be caught in the act of self-contradiction in the other

In other words it is hard to take a human made concept of a phenomenon and equal it with the phenomenon in itself. What this implies is that a concept made before a genetic discovery can not be used for the discovery, but a genetic discovery done may be given a name, and for the precision of science this name ought not to exist already (Jaspers, 1963).


Bibliography:
Bergson, H. (1920). Mind-Energy: Lectures and Essays. New York: Henry Holt and Company.

Jaspers, K. (1963). General Psychopathology. UK: Manchester University Press.

[Flandersh]

Note: Aspergers syndrome is accepted as being genetically determined, and have on average a higher level of intelligence. That fact alone demonstrates a genetic influence on mental ability, though I believe for the most part that barring a few unfortunate and exceptional genetic traits, we can all reach the same levels of general intelligence.

There is no requirment of Asperger syndrome being genetically determined, neither that the intelligence is over average, by ICD-10 to set the diagnosis. The said acceptation is further a pure hypothesis and not a proven scientifical fact (Jacobsen, 2010; Joseph, 2006), and it is impossible to prove on the basis of parallellism since it has a history of existing as a personality disorder (Asperger, 1956; Wing, 1981).

Bibliography:
Asperger, H. (1956). Heilpädagogik: Einführung in die Psychopathologie des Kindes für Ärzte, Lehrer, Psychologen, Richter und Fürsorgerinnen. Wien: Springer Verlag.

Jacobsen, K. (2010). Diagnostic politics: the curious case of Kanner's syndrome. History of Psychiatry 21(436), 436-454.

Joseph, J. (2006). The Missing Gene: Psychiatry, Heredity, and the Fruitless Search for Genes. US: Algora Publishing.

Wing, L. (1981). Asperger's syndrome: a clinical account. Psychological Medicine 11(1), 115-129.

[avasopht]

Be mindful of the dates.

But like I said, putting them into a genetic database, isolating cases with minimal influence (and yes I'm well aware of the dangers you forewarned), we may be able to determine generic variance.

Neuroplasticity is what complicates this, especially when multiplied by the complexitiescomplexities involved in trying to isolate behavioural development.

Be mindful of those dates